Reasons The VP Community Is Shrinking....

[shiva]

No worries now Noah, go back to your site when you get it up and running again. What you are doing is no different than what I was doing for 8 years, but, it's pretty apparent that your reasons for doing this are far different than mine. Since you have made your statement, even though some of it was very very wrong due to anger, still, it's enough for me to understand, and I respect your decision.

My offer still stands to others, if you need images that I have collected, just request here and only at PN. I have over 8 gigs of images just on my hard drive, 1.3 gigs of stripped playfield images (various quality/sizes and a lot would have to be stitched though) of 235 different tables. I'm sure people understand that to put up the entire image collection would take quite a long time, so I would prefer to upload by request.

If you have forgotten the URL, here it is of the existing images I have already uploaded.

http://www.esnips.com/user/shiva

Some of these are quite old though, and I may have newer and better quality now, but I can always redo them.

[bob]

Originally Posted by nicolas.b

despite shiva being a crotchety old gasbag

I have to correct you here.... shiva's a "lovable" crotchety old gasbag.

Originally Posted by TheMcD

I think you missed my point, Bob.

Impossible! It's that cone shaped thing sitting on your forehead!.

Look, I really love this BS just as much as you do. Seriously. I can't help but laugh every god damn time this comes up.

We are all laughing.... Just at different people.

but BSing about the same god damn thing every god damn time gets old after a while.

Then come up with some new material and share it with shiva as he hasn't posted anything new since 2001.

P.S. 22 people reading this thread... hot topic!

People love this crap! You give them enough of it and they'll start playing pinball again!

I wish I could write as eloquently as Nic.... He should get paid for this sh1t.

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

[Steely]

Originally Posted by bob

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

I hope you took your wife along.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Steely

I hope you took your wife along.

She picked up the check!

[Leo_Wanker]

VP9 sux. (my opinion only so no crying)
I have just finished testing my HUGE collection of VP tables on VP9 and less than 15 % of them work properly. Most you can't play at all. The rest have many gfx glitches.
Not a smart move to release an update that renders the bulk of tables done useless.

BTW: Y'all suk ( especially Bob ) so shut up.

[Tomcat Leader]

Every time I read threads like this, it is ALWAYS the same thing: name-calling, blame, flaming, past being brought up, egos bruised, feelings hurt. It really does get old. The same old thing getting re-hashed over and over and over. United we stand, divided we fall. Bottom line. As The McD said in an earlier post, we need unity, not division, if we are going to flourish and thrive as a community. We should be setting the example for the new people that come into the community, not being the exception to it. Harbored feelings only further destroy what many people have worked hard to build. Granted I'm not a scriptor or a builder of tables, I'm not that creative. But seeing what has taken place since I've been around the VP scene, its no wonder to me why the community has diminshed drastically in the last few years. Personal attacks, God complexes, squabbling and bickering, all of this is enough to drive anyone away. We have enough negativity in the world, why bring it here? It's the common bond, pinball, that brought us together. Why should we let things break that bond, especially when we call ourselves logical, reasoning adults and not be able to discuss a "disagreement" like what we say we are? Last I checked, this is a FORUM, not a playground. The constant bickering and open fighting really needs to stop, here and now, if we are to continue as a community. If not, than maybe we should just close up shop and let pinball die. That is where this is heading, anyway. The final end of pinball as we know it. I didn't want to be the one to say this, now I feel like shit for it, but someone had to say it. With everything said, I'm going to pour a cold frosty glass of beer and play some VP.

[bob]

Leo!!!!! I love ya man! You're the greatest VP author of all time and that ain't BS!

Originally Posted by faralos

i am not going here again, enough mud-slinging was/is done over this, but personally I think he is doing a great job.

I don't think anyone would say Noah's site isn't the greatest VP site ever.... He has done a fantastic job, even though shiva didn't lift a finger to help.

[Eala Dubh Sidhe]

Originally Posted by Leo_Wanker

VP9 sux. (my opinion only so no crying)
I have just finished testing my HUGE collection of VP tables on VP9 and less than 15 % of them work properly. Most you can't play at all. The rest have many gfx glitches.
Not a smart move to release an update that renders the bulk of tables done useless.

BTW: Y'all suk ( especially Bob ) so shut up.

Then, er, don't use it? The polls on VPF before it went down indicated that the majority of users still prefer VP8, or at least, don't care enough about VP9 not to use both versions. And why should they, until the amount of available working VP9 tables is enough to make VP8 obsolete? It's the same with any new piece of software.

[Leo_Wanker]

Originally Posted by Leo Wanker

VP9 sux. (my opinion only so no crying)
I have just finished testing my HUGE collection of VP tables on VP9 and less than 15 % of them work properly. Most you can't play at all. The rest have many gfx glitches.
Not a smart move to release an update that renders the bulk of tables done useless.

BTW: Y'all suk ( especially Bob ) so shut up.

Originally Posted by Eala Dubh Sidhe

Then, er, don't use it? The polls on VPF before it went down indicated that the majority of users still prefer VP8, or at least, don't care enough about VP9 not to use both versions. And why should they, until the amount of available working VP9 tables is enough to make VP8 obsolete? It's the same with any new piece of software.

Hey Eala.
Nowhere in my post did I say i was going to use it. You assumed that.
"testing"
That is the operative word.
One question comes to mind:
Who exactly is going to re-make all those VP8 tables into VP9 tables??
That was a rhetorical question so, no need to answer.

[shiva]

Originally Posted by bob

I don't think anyone would say Noah's site isn't the greatest VP site ever.... He has done a fantastic job, even though shiva didn't lift a finger to help.

Well there you go, since he's done a fantastic job, I don't need to. Nothing I like better now than not helping if people don't need my help and don't ask for it either.

[Humid]

I've been into VP for about 3 years, which I discovered by stumbling into a torrent. I perused many of the archived discussions at VPF.com to catch the gist of what had happened in the early 'glory' days. Sort of like rock music in the 60's, heady, creative excitement by guys who were tripping on the high of that time.

Reading the expressed opinions of Shiva and Noah about the state of today's VP is kinda like hearing Robert Plant explaining how a real rocker should behave to Chris Martin of Coldplay. Shiva and Noah have both earned my respect and gratitude with their deep seated devotion to this pinball experience. I won't compare Zep to Coldplay, nor Shiva's contributions to Noah's.

I recently felt inspired to try my first mod, primarily because I wanted to contribute something back into the scene that has given me 100's of hours of pleasure. I've continued to see mods and tables from new authors and Noah's tutorial section was that little boost I needed to go for it.

Sure, I wish that Shiva and Pacdude and Gottlieb and Kid C and other amazing talents hadn't tired of the BS and tuned out, but that's life. Few artists sustain high creative output year after year before they feel they've accomplished enough, and say 'let someone else have the spotlight'.

I believe in Noah's determination to maintain an optimistic energy for VP's future. I agree that the 'flavor' of his site is more serious than Nirvana, but perhaps the disciplined atmosphere can still nuture the next wave of authors. I see The Org as the classroom and Nirvana as recess, nicely complimenting each other.

As The McD likes to say 'My Two Cents'
As Shockman likes to say ' Don't Ban Me'

[shiva]

Very nice words Humid.

I do wish I had the time now that I use to, but I don't, I just have time for myself. I guess I'm jaded now after 9 years, it sure sounds like it, but then I don't think there's anyone around that's been screwed as much as I have because I put my trust in someone's hands that I shouldn't of.

It's all about trust isn't it. No matter who you are, from the King to the peon, you all have to rely on others, and you expect a certain fairness and equality, not just from one person, but from everyone. If you don't get it, then you become like me, or KidC, or Stein.

But... I still have my love for pinball. Even though I choose to no longer share it, it's not for the actual reasons that others will point out. It's because being away from things means I am no longer influenced by other people, I develop my own ways not bound by other peoples expectations or demands, and thus, I now can express myself the way I want to in my designs, just like VP was originally intended to be.

I'm retired as a developer, because I no longer am capable of being a developer. I've become something else. In the last couple years, I have learned more about what I am truly capable of than I have the previous 45 years, but it's also too personal as well. It may sound a bit weird (but how would you describe it) but being able to go beyond the limits than you think is possible will do that, especially when you end up surprising yourself big time.

Just being able to go "wow, I never knew I could do that" is far more addicting than anything the community could ever offer me.

[Ike Savage]

Originally Posted by bob

I wish I could write as eloquently as Nic.... He should get paid for this sh1t.

haha... thanks, bob. that's what happens when you have a drink for the first time in a while.

thankfully i drink very little anymore. but there's always the day after 'what stupid shit did i say to someone online or in RL' that often embarrasses me.

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

you can never go wrong with chinese.

i love these semi-recent wave of chinese buffets that have cantonese, american and sushi spread out across many aisles. all-you-can-eat lunches are only $6-7. do they have those around dayton?

[bob]

We have those Chinese buffets everywhere.... The speak/understand very little English, but the food is always great.

[Meecro Hyperion]

Originally Posted by bob

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

What a coincidence, I just went to China for dinner (a wedding)!

Originally Posted by bob

We have those Chinese buffets everywhere.... The speak/understand very little English, but the food is always great.

So tell them you like their food in a language they can understand: Zhen houchi! (badly pronounced 'jern howtree' but they'll get it)

Originally Posted by bob

If you're really looking for cool games, the consoles nowadays are incredible....

Mobile phones are the new neo consoles (and almost everyone has one who can afford one).

First mob with a 1Ghz processor released recently....

Maybe 'Pinball Trek - The Next Generation' needs VP to be ported to phone OS's like OS X (iphone), Win-mob, Symbian, Android etc.

Then maybe pinball will be a 'cool thing to impress your friends', and the geeks will want to build originals to show-off even more....

It isn't a resource hog, doesn't need great graphics acceleration or a mega processor.
VB translation to other compilable languages can be automated. Collections are just simple objects (hash arrays)....

The iphone alone generated $1B in software downloads in the first year of it's online s/w shop's operation.....

Nanotech - are you listening?
Randy?
Anyone?

If VP became a fad in China I think the word 'revitalize' would be an understatement. They _LOVE_ everything American over there.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Meecro Hyperion

What a coincidence, I just went to China for dinner (a wedding)!

Wow, that must have been exciting!

The iphone alone generated $1B in software downloads in the first year of it's online s/w shop's operation.....

My son has created a few games for this, his real life occupation is also programming. He paid for his Mac in the first couple weeks after releasing his first game....

http://www.terminalcoregames.com/index.html

[sleepy]

Hey Bob, would he be interested in programming a pinball editor?

[bob]

Originally Posted by sleepy

Hey Bob, would he be interested in programming a pinball editor?

He is a board game geek. He's not the least bit interested in Visual Pinball.... I gave him my real Pinball Table about 5 years ago and it's still sitting in my basement, even though it was in his bedroom when he was growing up.

[Ike Savage]

Originally Posted by bob

He is a board game geek.

i would love to pick his mind about board games... do you know what his faves are?

[bob]

Originally Posted by nicolas.b

i would love to pick his mind about board games... do you know what his faves are?

He has a large finished full basement and he has games stacked in shelves from the floor to the ceiling all around one room of the basement with a game table in the middle. Then he has a MAME cabinet, bar, electronic dart game, Fooseball table and my old pool table (which was a good one) spread out in the rest of the basement. It's a nice setup.

He likes playing those games where you do like 3 to 5 things on your turn, I hate those games.

He talks about this site a lot, but I don't know his screen name. Here is a list of their top rated board games.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame

[Ike Savage]

sounds good, and yea, great site... i've only scratched the surface of it, but a lot of that is because i haven't sufficiently hooked up with local people who are into that stuff like your son. everyone is obsessed with their *expletive* video / console / cell phone games these days... but there are so many great games that don't require electricity.

[whodoyouthinkitis?]

Whoo boy, the same bunch of mindless wonks! Lol! Where the hell is Shockey (Phil)? I'm ready to give all of you "lefties" a schoolin'! But more on topic, the VP community is shrinking because VP/VPM (et al) SUCKS! It's not user friendly... and many believe (rightly so) that it's a complete pain in the ass to implement properly on any given system, compared with anything close to the ease of use and seamless performance of Future Pinball. Why do you think Roney eschewed it in the end? Why did Tii (and so many others) abandon it? It's because it is a sinking ship, my friends. JPSalas and the others need to recreate the tables already rendered in VP/VPM, in FP. (true dat!)

[whodoyouthinkitis?]

VP/VPM is no longer "mainstream"... I hereby officially pronounce VP/VPM to be "FRINGE"!

[bob]

Hi whocareswhoyouare, I tried FP and would rather play Pong.

[robert kundrat]

Originally Posted by whodoyouthinkitis?

VP/VPM is no longer "mainstream"... I hereby officially pronounce VP/VPM to be "FRINGE"!

....If you say so....

[kristian]

Hey guys... here's a picture of Shiva and Nicolas.b... straight from my archives...!!

[Ike Savage]

mmm... i get to be waldorf, isn't that right?

[tiltjlp]

Well, this thread has only sat idle for 10 months, so I'm still allowed to bring it back to life, according to Rule 17. The VP community is shrinking because although I'm newly returned, I've lost 30 pounds in 3 months, and only have 120 more to lose.

But it was dieing 4 years ago when I left. Several reasons I feel is the loss of shivaSite, the changes to what once was The Magic Of Flipperless, and what I'm sure is still the sloppy and below-average tables made by many authors who probably still rush to release their stuff with little if any testing. I'm far from the greatest author, but I always will release my work when it's the best I can make it.

But now that I'm back, maybe Bob and I, and a few other folks, can stir up the BS, and relight the creative spark in y'all. Now, it's true I didn't care for much of Wrenchen's work, but I adored those goofy stories he dreamed up for each release. Wrench was the King Of BS.

[sleepy]

It's the number of times some of us tried to do something in VP and all we got was The DING!

Tried to animate a Wall. DING!

Tried to insert a .COM object. DING!

Tried this. Tried that. DING!

Over Ten Thousand Nights of DING! And that was in only Ten Years!

VP is definitely a humbling process of accepting the imposed script limitations, but then
figuring out a workaround, but trying to do it by following Windows VBScript Docs with too little explanation and too much emphasis on WISH/HTML examples can be very disillusioning.
So can trying to create a basic simple .dll COM object, even just for one's edification, and constantly getting DINGED! with "ActiveX cannot create..." and "The .dll Entry Point cannot be found..." errors. For years I tried to create a .COM object from *I think* the Windows joystk.dll. Not even that, a system .dll. Very disillusioning.

It's like the missing emulation for the Mephisto table. It uses 8088 ICs on the sound board, so maybe it's an Amiga system and maybe it's not. DING! These advanced programming problems are beyond me. Insert DING!

I plead stupid, but at least I know that.

[StevOz]

Yeha...Ding...Dong...