I've made a decison

[tiltjlp]

Life’s nothing but an ongoing series of choices, and when a pinball forum or community is involved, many decisions seem to be and are connected. Every so often the VP community is visited, or maybe I should say plagued, with persons who do not have the best interest of the forums at heart. Recently we have had to endure Neptune, and before him, Aristocrat. I was particularly proud of the message we sent Aristocrat, and the way he simply faded away.

Neptune and Aristocrat aren’t the first nor the last fools VP will have to suffer. Currently our resident fool is Ron Bizzle, who from all indications, is dumber that anything a cat could ever drag in. Bizzle is so moronic that although it has been made clear to him that he isn’t welcome around VP, he won’t leave. That wouldn’t be a problem, except that he has infected Pinball Nirvana, the most liberal forum in VP. JonPurpleHaze owns PN, and being an extreme liberal he has allowed Bizzle to run roughshod over the forum and any number of long-time members.

Since I’ve decided that I’m unwilling to share PN with the likes of Ron Bizzle, and since it’s obvious that he will continue to be made to feel welcome here, I have decided to leave not only PN, but also VP and the Internet. Bizzle and his campaign of insults and hatred have taken all the fun I used to find in VP, and left a bitten taste in my spirit. I will continue to be a part of VP and PN until the 15th of May, when I will cancel my Internet service and once and for all leave VP. The only way I will not carry out my plan to leave VP is if Bizzle is banned from VP. It’s sad that I have to do this when I honestly don’t want to, but Bizzle has taken all the joy out of VP.

I want to thank those folks who stood with me in my effort to rid VP of Bizzle. Those who felt I was wrong, no hard feelings. Steve, I appreciate everything you’ve done for PN since I returned, and wish you luck in what has to be quite a tough job. Jon, good luck, it’s shame that you decided a vulgar, insulting, hate filled individual was more worth standing up for than common sense and principle. While I’m not in agreement with your decision, I’m not surprised. In the off-chance Bizzle is banned by the 14th, I’ll remain online and take whatever heat anyone wishes to subject me to. At least I have the courage of my beliefs to stand up for what I believed in. If not, hope y’all enjoy Bizzle’s wonderful tables.

[JonPurpleHaze]

I hope you reconsider and realize:

rpbizzle47's disgusting attachments removed.

http://www.pinballnirvana.com/index....ewtopic&t=1403

Your reaction to this bizzle dude seems extreme, i don't know him and hope you realize that he has been warned, i don't believe he's broken the rules since. How you could let this dude decide if you disconnect the internet amazes me...

[highrise]

come on John, you're not called Patton for nothing. Let's keep up the fight.

[shiva]

To just leave a entire community because of one person is extreme, but I am also just sick of seeing one person after another be the community moron. Of course, I wouldn't allow stuff like this to happen in the first place, because not doing something is usually a lot worse than doing something.

That and of course, I have the abilities and the knowledge as a webmaster to make sure others aren't annoyed by that one person either if they want.

Even if you decide to leave, you don't need to just remove all traces, and remove the internet. You will always have a home with me.

Besides, once I get everything set up, I always could use a good writer to write the manual for a upcoming project.

[tiltjlp]

Thanks Highrise and shiva. It's nice to have people take me seriously, and understand the problem. There's more than a week left to see what happens, and I'll evaluate my options and choices between now and then.

[JonPurpleHaze]

Originally Posted by shiva

To just leave a entire community because of one person is extreme, but I am also just sick of seeing one person after another be the community moron. Of course, I wouldn't allow stuff like this to happen in the first place, because not doing something is usually a lot worse than doing something.
That and of course, I have the abilities and the knowledge as a webmaster to make sure others aren't annoyed by that one person either if they want.

I get your drift...and you missed the mark..

[highrise]

Jon

I'm very liberal myself, and I will stand up for anyone's right to free speech. If a member makes a mistake, it's fair enough they should get a warning, but if a member makes a series of posts that are so utterly and obviously designed to shock and offend, a warning is not good enough, and there are several reasons for this:

Firstly, we didn't get a warning that he was going to post this stuff. We were subjected to it unconditionally because the images appear on the screen automatically. He knew exactly what he was doing with this. So the punishment should fit the crime.

Secondly, we have a poll running that overwhelmingly supports a ban if he doesn't apologise. This is not a case of one member falling out with another, it's a case of nearly every regular person, the people that keep the forum alive, being offended and wanting him banned.

Thirdly, the forum has been completely taken over by this matter, people are thinking about leaving, and new members are undoubtedly being put off joining. Every hour that goes by, the situation deteriorates. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. Allowing him to continue here is like saying you will allow a parasite to continue to live on your body because it has as much right to life as you do.

Fourthly, simply removing the posts seems to me to be sweeping the matter under the carpet. More than anything, he has not apologised to the community for his behaviour, and maintains he did nothing wrong, so for him to get a slapped wrist without even being told to make a public apology gives him a victory that he should not be allowed to have. As I said before, to me this makes the admin seem weak, and in an extreme case like this, sitting on the fence is almost the same as defending him, and what he did was indefensible.

As I said, I believe in the rights of the individual and in freedom of expression, but this is too much. You have to make a decision for the good of the future of the site. At the very least, he should be asked to make a full and gracious apology, clearly admitting that he was wrong, and if he refuses to do that, he should be banned. As I have already said, I will also be leaving the forum if he stays. I don't want to be part of a site that tolerates this kind of thing. You may say you haven't tolerated it, but he has gone unpunished for incredibly offensive behaviour, and that to me is the same as tolerating it.

[tiltjlp]

Well, I had hoped that JPH would show some back bone and loyalty, and back me about Bizzle. Since he hasn't, and it's obvious that he won't, I have decided, that rather than leave VP, I will cut all ties with Pinball Nirvana. This isn't as easy a decision as it seems, but Jon has repeatedly insulted and belittled me for many of the decisions I've made here, when he basically wasn't paying any attention. Just to show you how involved he is, he has no idea of all the problems Bizzle has caused, and thinks Bizzle will change. I'll still be around VPF and Pinball Originals, and I wish those still a part of PN the best of luck. At least now I won't have to put up with either Ron Bizzle or Shockman's endless rants. Thanks for the memories.

John

[JonPurpleHaze]

Originally Posted by tiltjlp

Well, I had hoped that JPH would show should back bone and loyalty, and back me about Bizzle. Since he hasn't, and it's obvious that he won't, I have decided, that rather than leave VP, I will cut all ties with Pinball Nirvana. So... you want bizzle banned and dislike my decisions?

He was given a warning and his images were deleted.
Your problem with bizzle seems extreme and i hope we can proceed from this, folks want him banned and the staff can't be held to poll results...

[Shockman]

I don't believe that it is right to force a ban in that way, wish I did though, I'd hate to see you carry this out.

You had to go and say what was it? continue to be made to feel welcome? He is not.

You are going to leave the internet if Ron is not banned, even if he breaks no more rules? If that works, I will use it on VPF.

I agree with nicolas.b, and TheManFromPOST, There is no reason to lynch him. And I have to say that I can see how you could have set him off.

What would be wrong, if the warning was enough?

[shiva]

I disagree shockman. This entire community has been rife with problems because something wasn't done sooner, or until it's to late. I got so fed up with it all, I have "left" the community, because it's just not worth my time to even bother anymore.

The thing is a lot of people go on about freedom of speech and all that, but then maybe they are also confused because it just a website, and not a country. If you are the owner of that website, you set the rules, and if people disagree with those rules, then people don't have to visit there, which is exactly what I do with certain websites.

I set my own rules, i make sure everyone knows them, and I will enforce them if needed, but because everyone knows my rules, and knows not to push me with them, I have far fewer problems than anyone else, and crap like this never happens in the first place.

Don't even need to ban or RO anyone either, there are other ways to do it with my system. Some are very ironic.

[JonPurpleHaze]

Originally Posted by shiva

I disagree shockman. This entire community has been rife with problems because something wasn't done sooner, or until it's to late. I got so fed up with it all, I have "left" the community, because it's just not worth my time to even bother anymore.

The thing is a lot of people go on about freedom of speech and all that, but then maybe they are also confused because it just a website, and not a country. If you are the owner of that website, you set the rules, and if people disagree with those rules, then people don't have to visit there, which is exactly what I do with certain websites.

I set my own rules, i make sure everyone knows them, and I will enforce them if needed, but because everyone knows my rules, and knows not to push me with them, I have far fewer problems than anyone else, and crap like this never happens in the first place.

Don't even need to ban or RO anyone either, there are other ways to do it with my system. Some are very ironic.

Whats your point?.......
You ban folks at will? Pinheads?....

[tiltjlp]

Just so there is no misunderstanding . . .

If you've heard that overnight I quit Pinball Nirvana, you heard right. It's been coming for the last six months, if not longer. If you want details, read about it here at PN. I guess Pinball Originals will be my new Pinball home, and I won't discuss PN over there. And as for PMs or e-mail, I'll only respond to PN related questions from folks who I count as my friends. If you aren't sure where you stand with me, don't chance it. This is my final post at PN. You can either thank or blame Jon, all according to how you feel about me leaving.

[PcwaG]

Well, I hate seein' ya go John.

I know you and I butted head back when Jive and I did our thing at VPF, but we got things smoothed over and I consider you a closer friend through the whole thing.
But the main thing is to make sure you take care of you.
If things are getting to ya here, perhaps a break is needed, but I would recommend at least poking your head in once in a while to see if things improved.
You never know, as stubborn as I am, perhaps I can just kick Mr. Bizzle's virtual e-ass.

See ya in the Outlane if anything, then, John.

[JonPurpleHaze]

Originally Posted by tiltjlp

Just so there is no misunderstanding . . .

If you've heard that overnight I quit Pinball Nirvana, you heard right. It's been coming for the last six months, if not longer. If you want details, read about it here at PN. I guess Pinball Originals will be my new Pinball home, and I won't discuss PN over there. And as for PMs or e-mail, I'll only respond to PN related questions from folks who I count as my friends. If you aren't sure where you stand with me, don't chance it. This is my final post at PN. You can either thank or blame Jon, all according to how you feel about me leaving.

Thank Me, John has been trying to turn this joint into a prison for the past year or so.. I always mentioned that these forums are not necessary and I'm happy to serve a shitload of files without the forums. You want me to ban bizzle? Ask StevOz? You seem like an old punk....

[Cobracure]

Originally Posted by tiltjlp

Life’s nothing but an ongoing series of choices, and when a pinball forum or community is involved, many decisions seem to be and are connected. Every so often the VP community is visited, or maybe I should say plagued, with persons who do not have the best interest of the forums at heart. Recently we have had to endure Neptune, and before him, Aristocrat. I was particularly proud of the message we sent Aristocrat, and the way he simply faded away.

Neptune and Aristocrat aren’t the first nor the last fools VP will have to suffer. Currently our resident fool is Ron Bizzle, who from all indications, is dumber that anything a cat could ever drag in. Bizzle is so moronic that although it has been made clear to him that he isn’t welcome around VP, he won’t leave. That wouldn’t be a problem, except that he has infected Pinball Nirvana, the most liberal forum in VP. JonPurpleHaze owns PN, and being an extreme liberal he has allowed Bizzle to run roughshod over the forum and any number of long-time members.

Since I’ve decided that I’m unwilling to share PN with the likes of Ron Bizzle, and since it’s obvious that he will continue to be made to feel welcome here, I have decided to leave not only PN, but also VP and the Internet. Bizzle and his campaign of insults and hatred have taken all the fun I used to find in VP, and left a bitten taste in my spirit. I will continue to be a part of VP and PN until the 15th of May, when I will cancel my Internet service and once and for all leave VP. The only way I will not carry out my plan to leave VP is if Bizzle is banned from VP. It’s sad that I have to do this when I honestly don’t want to, but Bizzle has taken all the joy out of VP.

I want to thank those folks who stood with me in my effort to rid VP of Bizzle. Those who felt I was wrong, no hard feelings. Steve, I appreciate everything you’ve done for PN since I returned, and wish you luck in what has to be quite a tough job. Jon, good luck, it’s shame that you decided a vulgar, insulting, hate filled individual was more worth standing up for than common sense and principle. While I’m not in agreement with your decision, I’m not surprised. In the off-chance Bizzle is banned by the 14th, I’ll remain online and take whatever heat anyone wishes to subject me to. At least I have the courage of my beliefs to stand up for what I believed in. If not, hope y’all enjoy Bizzle’s wonderful tables.

Good riddance you moany old fart. Go find some other way of annoying people. Writing letter to newspapers or something.

[TheManFromPOST]

shiva, so you have installed the 'misery' program?
I wish we could add that to VPF

[JonPurpleHaze]

Originally Posted by TheManFromPOST

shiva, so you have installed the 'misery' program?
I wish we could add that to VPF

Might be hard to accomplish if you can't add files to the site and don't pay cash for an upgrade huh? shiva might be able to accomplish the change but everyone else probably could with proper permissions.

[shiva]

Nope.

One of the new features with VB is to set it so a person can be globally ignored. If a person actually wants to see that person's post, they can set it in their CP.

In other words, a person can post as much as he wants, he can just be very happy writing what ever he wants, but no one will actually see it.

There are also other ways to do things as well, inferno systems, moderation of posts, things that are included that would be considered "anti-free speech" like, but for some reason are included as part of the basic package.

I also have my own modifications and hacks, and I could use others, but really, the simplest thing is usually the simplest solution.

[JonPurpleHaze]

Originally Posted by shiva

Nope.

One of the new features with VB is to set it so a person can be globally ignored. If a person actually wants to see that person's post, they can set it in their CP.

In other words, a person can post as much as he wants, he can just be very happy writing what ever he wants, but no one will actually see it.

There are also other ways to do things as well, inferno systems, moderation of posts, things that are included that would be considered "anti-free speech" like, but for some reason are included as part of the basic package.

I also have my own modifications and hacks, and I could use others, but really, the simplest thing is usually the simplest solution.

So what?
More ignore and banning tools seem redundant, is it fantastic that a user could make an invisible post? "Globally Ignored" sounds like a fancy name for banned.

[StevOz]

Pathetic, you talk about backbone Tiltjlp, John, go on, show us..... a few images, a difference of opinion from someone you have little respect for is enough for you to throw in the towel?

Yes this Admin, being mainly just me, with JPH's current approval decided to give Bizzle another chance, so what, deal with it, he has not since breached the conditions set down via the warning, that was issued to him.

[highrise]

I think it is the job of the administrator to be aware of the needs and sensitivities of its users. By giving Bizzle a second chance you are effectively saying that he will be forgiven and suffer no punishment. This was a far more extreme case of behaviour than a simple falling out between members, and I don't think you appreciate just how much this has angered everyone, and how sickened they feel that he is allowed to still walk around acting like he did nothing wrong, even saying that he did nothing wrong.

That's what really gets me the most. He has not been asked to even apologise, despite the overwhelming view of all the regulars that he should be banned if he doesn't.

Bizzle is a splinter in the eye of this forum. He needs to be removed. I am already at the point where I no longer post anything related to my VP work here, and I will soon be requesting that the tutorials and demos I made also be removed. I'm also considering asking the regulars to boycott the site for several days to make the point clear.

[StevOz]

You think that our job is? Yet I am fully aware of the sensitivities, as for needs, that's a dubious call at best. I fully appreciate how much this has angered and sickened many, myself and many more besides that chose not to be party to such.

Wrong, really, so vastly wronged that it effects their very being, if so then that is of their own volation.

The forum has no eye or splinter, he needs? to be removed? You do as you will, it's your call as it is for one and all.

[Shockman]

Thanks Jon.

I like John, better than Steve, but Steve is right and John is wrong.

I thank Jon, not that John is leaving, but for a site that is just a bit relunctant to ban someone, more, a site that would give someone a chance to follow the rules that are set up.

If you warn someone that they have to do this, give them a chance to do this.

Unforgiveable? I don't agree. I will forgive Ron , and hope to be friends again if he has changed per Steve's instruction.

[Shockman]

Don't feel cheated, that the system worked Jonh, fell good about it.

[elton]

John
You're taking this waaaay to far.
Yes, Ron has been a right 'pain' (for want of another word) and to a degree, the banter discussing his posting has been upsetting as well as strangely entertaining. But think about your proposed action for a moment longer .... you are going to let an uneducated (by most standards) and uncompassionate bastard (by everyone's standards) who's pissed just about everyone off, destroy the hobby you've contributed toward for years! That's extreme without a doubt.
Rise above him, show who's the more considerate and ignore him. To fall out with Jon and Steve, or try and put them in an equally impossible position eg' it's him or me, is unfair on them and leaves everyone with nowhere to go.

So promote you're elder statesman position, rise above the Biddle (which let's face it isn't hard to do), continue to enjoy your hobby and contributing to the pinball scene for the wider good of the community.
You'll notice that Ron had heeded the warning given and has not been tempted to goad your recent position - so perhaps this is a changing moment, a defining moment for all concerned.
Whatever you decide, best wishes from across the pond - but I sincerely hope that you'll reconsider your position with Jon and Steve - there's no need for everyone to fall out.
Respect.

[shiva]

Jon I guess your problem with me is I refuse to have anything to do with anything if it has the word community in it, and that includes this site, irp, p-o, vpf or whatever.
At least you will stop asking, but I also made it clear that as far as I am concerned, and it's nothing personal to anyone, including you , the entire "community" can go rotate.

If you can't handle that fine, but also when you write things like this, do it from knowledge. Anyone who uses the latest generation VB forum knows that it's exactly like the previous version, that person's post is listed, with a message that tells you to click a button to display the message instead of a post, and a reminder to use cp if you want to show that person's other messages. VPF has the same setup, just as it's older, the person has to set it up manually. I believe it's call ignore in the cp and it's been available for years.

[highrise]

Well, my take on this is really pretty simple. If I was regular at a pub, and a guy came in spouting abuse at everyone, perhaps wearing a t-shirt with a dead foetus on it, shoving it in peoples faces, making a few nazi salutes, calling everyone a m*therfucker etc., I'd be pretty pissed off. If he did it every day for a few weeks, gradually getting worse, despite being told to leave, I'd expect the landlord of the pub to step in and bar him, especially if he didn't apologise.

If instead, the landlord just had a quiet word and let him come back to the pub whenever he felt like, without ever saying sorry, as long as he behaved, well, the atmosphere would have changed. Just knowing someone like that was sharing a room with me would mean I would rather be somewhere else.

And that, gentleman, is why I am leaving this particular establishment. I for one cannot with good conscience allow myself to be part of something that allows stuff like this to be punished in such a trivial way. Please remove the demos, tables and tutorials I have made available. Perhaps Bizzle will post something nice to replace them with.

[Shockman]

Does this site have a rule about taking stuff down on request? I don't think so. Not sayind they wont or shouldn't. I think is was enough for a first offence. It was meant to make Ron feel bad, not for you and John to feel good. If it was to make you guys feel good then it would have been your ban without this warning. LOL at you man.

[JonPurpleHaze]

I stupidly hit the wrong button when splitting some OffTopic Posts to the Junkyard, here are 3 that should have stayed and are located in this thread:
http://www.pinballnirvana.com/index....ewtopic&t=1497
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by JonPurpleHaze

Sadly, highrise's files have been removed from the downloads per his request.

Posted: May 06, 2006 - 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by davidsss

John I think you're doing the wrong thing, why? Because it means Bizzle has won. I don't even know what images he uploaded, I don't take notice of crap done by people who's shoe size exceeds their IQ. That said, I do believe that there is a point where someone needs to be banned, I just think it is a lot more effective to just ignore them. If someone started insulting me I would give it maybe 2 replies before I just ignored them - giving people like Bizzle attention is precisely what they want. I think it is a greater loss to the VP community to lose John than to have to put up with Bizzle.

This will be my first and last post on this issue as I don't want to give Bizzle more attention than he deserves (which is none).

As for John, take a break from here and pop in again in a few months and see if it's alright. I'll see you on some of the other sites, although probably not VPOriginals as my passion is for reproductions so I don't visit there very often.

DS

Posted: May 07, 2006 - 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by elton

All these recent posts are and denegrates John's thread. Can they be stripped out please - 'cos this is crap.