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  #1  
Old 10-04-2013, 05:34 PM
dllyons dllyons is offline
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Default Williams Jubilee flipper weak

I bought this machine recently and have everything working and many small pieces replaced on the playfield. Everything seems fine except the flippers. Actually the left flipper works fine, but the right flipper seems weak- it can't flip a ball to the top of the playfield. I've torn the flippers apart and cleaned everything and reassembled them and mechanically, they seem perfect. Very loose and free- very little friction in the mechanisms. The left one is still perfect, and so I replaced the coil in the right one with a brand new coil. Still have the same exact problem. So I'm wondering if there's a voltage problem? I'm not sure what voltages I should be getting when taking readings at the poles of the coils. I suspected that maybe the EOS switch was being activated too soon, but it seems to be positioned perfectly, as the flippers won't trip it until they're completely open. However, I can see that it has been repositioned several times from previous owners so there's been something going on before I bought the machine.
Anyone got any ideas for me to try ? This will be a very nice machine if I can get this one problem solved.
Thanks in advance !
Dave in Ohio
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  #2  
Old 10-05-2013, 10:48 AM
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I believe the flipper coils get 24 volts. I found no schematic for your game. Just the owners manual@ http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?gid=1321 I think most games of early 70's had 24 volt secondaries for solenoids. The EOS contacts carry the current for the coils until they open. They are some of the few contacts in a pinball that can be cleaned, gently, with a file. The flipper buttons may need cleaning too. That 24 volts is just enough to get the job done. Make sure the return spring is not too tight as it can waste much of the energy supplied by the coil. I adjust them to just hold the flippers retracted while the playfield is up. The flippers may 'limber up' after the game gets some good play time on it...C_S
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:40 AM
dllyons dllyons is offline
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Thanks Coil_Smoke! I've been using the schematic for the two player version of this game called "Darling" and assumed it would be virtually identical to the 4 player version "Jubilee".
Yes, it shows 24vAC to the flipper circuit (which surprised me because I was expecting DC volts).
Not being an expert on pinball machine designs, I was also surprised on the way the EOS switch works. It looks like as you said, the 24v goes thru it and part of the coil until the EOS is opened, and then the volts goes thru the whole coil. I suppose that's normal, but I didn't expect it. I really don't know what I expected actually.

Anyway, the springs are pretty weak so I don't think they're a problem. I can flick the plungers down thru the coils very easily, and the mechanisms seem very loose and free. As a matter of fact, the coil that works good may have slightly more mechanical friction/resistance than the flipper coil that seems weak. It just blows my mind that I replaced that coil and saw no difference.
I cleaned the contacts of the flipper switches on the sides of the cabinet. They actually looked polished now.
Got any more ideas ? It's really perplexing.
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:50 PM
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Thanks for the reply Coil_Smoke !
It appears that you're correct about the 24vAC, according to a 'Darling' schematic I found. Darling is the 2 player version of Jubilee, and I'd assume everything to be the same between the machines except the number of players.
I forgot to mention that I had also replaced the EOS switch for this weak flipper with a brand new one.
Then I took your suggestion and polished the contacts for the flipper buttons.
The spring on the good flipper may be slightly stiffer than the weak flipper so I guess we need to rule that possibility out
The darn thing is still weak. No change. I'm missing something ... what could it be ?
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  #5  
Old 10-07-2013, 12:15 AM
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I assume that nothing is scraping or gumming up the movement of the pole piece of the solenoid. That is no place for any kind of lube. I may have heard of them becoming magnetized and not working right? I am a bit rusty on the theory here but there is some magic(Is it a copper sleeve?) involved that allows solenoids to operate on AC. I know you have replaced the coil so I have to start wondering about more exotic explanations. I'd pull that shaft out and check if it has become a magnet...C_S
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  #6  
Old 10-07-2013, 12:45 PM
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Nope, nothing scraping. Like I mentioned before, the flipper mechanisms seem very free and lose and nothing wrong mechanically. Actually the good flipper seems to have an ever-so-slightly stiffer spring if anything, unless I'm imagining it.
So, I just checked the possible magnetizing of the shafts with them still inside the coils, and both are. The coils are de-energized, so they shouldn't be affecting the rods, should they ? Or do you think I still need to completely disassemble them ? I suppose it wouldn't hurt a thing to replace them both. Ya think ?
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:02 PM
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I took the rods clear out of the coils and yes, both are slightly magnetized. Should I replace them ?
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:09 PM
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I keep forgetting to answer one of your questions- the coils have a plastic tube thru their centers for the rod to slide thru. They seem to be frictionless on the flippers.

I've had to replace one of the other coils (pop-bumpers) because it had melted the plastic tubes and was causing too much friction on the rod, and that fixed that problem. Wish this one was fixed as easily
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:56 PM
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check the rods end it may have mushroomed out over the years from use
if it is mushroomed replace it for it will hang up if not done
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:17 PM
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I tried swapping the rods between the coils and the weakness continues to stay with the rt. flipper. As a matter of fact, every part I've swapped between the two flipper assemblies hasn't exposed the problem yet. Everything has been swapped except the coils themselves, but as I mentioned before, I bought a new coil for the weak flipper and the problem stayed exactly the same.
It absolutely doesn't make any sense to me. they appear to be wired correctly. Wish I had some photos or some way to compare my machine with someone else's Jubilee or a 'Darling' machine.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:13 PM
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with everything tried so far there isnt much left . what i would check next is the EOS switch wires. they are always burning away from their connectors and have internal breaks . everytime i restore a machine i change these wires . try this, lift and support playfield, start game, push in r flipper button, use screwdriver or alligator jumper and jumper across the two coil lugs that the EOS switch is wired to. the power winding of the flipper should pull in . if it does change EOS wires, if it doesnt other wiring problems have happened , possibly the coil wasnt wound correctly, with wires going to different lugs. you should see 2 thin wires and 2 thicker wires. center lug usually connects 1 of each. compare old coil with new for correct wire locations.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinballdaveh View Post
with everything tried so far there isnt much left . what i would check next is the EOS switch wires. they are always burning away from their connectors and have internal breaks . everytime i restore a machine i change these wires . try this, lift and support playfield, start game, push in r flipper button, use screwdriver or alligator jumper and jumper across the two coil lugs that the EOS switch is wired to. the power winding of the flipper should pull in . if it does change EOS wires, if it doesnt other wiring problems have happened , possibly the coil wasnt wound correctly, with wires going to different lugs. you should see 2 thin wires and 2 thicker wires. center lug usually connects 1 of each. compare old coil with new for correct wire locations.
That makes sense...Short the EOS winding with clip lead. That will force full current flow through the section of the flipper coil that does most of the work...C_S

P.S. The windings can be checked/identified with ohm meter. the shorter EOS winding will have a lower resistance(relative to the center tap) than the main part of the coil. Check the EOS circuit for continuity...C_S
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Last edited by Coil_Smoke; 10-08-2013 at 12:02 PM. Reason: P.S.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:21 PM
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Thank you everyone for your advice !!! The champagne bottles have been broken out, and there's a wild celebratory party going on !!!!!! The culprit was a bad wire (not a bad connection or solder job) for the EOS switch !!!!!! I honestly had thought of that possibility before, but I quickly discarded it. I thought, it just had a puny 24v going thru it and it looked good. Nah, couldn't be the wire. Had to be something else. BUT, it was !! So when pinballdaveh told me his experience, I replaced it today and voila ! it's working !!
Thank you guys a bunch !! Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you !! I'll buy ya all a beer when you stop in Zanesville Ohio !
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