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  #61  
Old 06-21-2006, 12:58 AM
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Those tables wouldn't exist without the VPM team or the table Authors either, Paratech. That's my whole point with the "triangle" thing. Remove any corner and it falls apart. Randy deserves credit, yes. But VP alone does not equal Addams Family. Far from it. Without VPM it doesn't exist. Without the table itself it does'nt exist either. Therefore, Randy did not make TAF possible all by himself. He's only 1/3 the equation.

Believe what you want, but I believe that all authors and programmers bear some responsiblity to the communities they help create. Randy can't even be bothered to answer a simple question (unless it's from Mitchell, I guess). No one is asking him to update VP either. They're only asking him to let UltraPin do it for him. That only takes two key presses to handle. "OK" or "NO".

Hence, some of us think Randy is a bit of a dick for NOT CARING one bit about the community that made his product good enough to get him a licensing deal that paid him money.
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  #62  
Old 06-21-2006, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolas.b
speaking about "little worlds"...

your problem, paratech, is that you completely miss the difference between people being ungrateful for something versus people who are grateful but also ask for a little bit of reciprocation for their hard work.
They got reciprrocation, an SP2 fix and a VP7, after that there apparently is nothing left, as Porky Pig'd say...Theee...Theee...That's all folks...

You don't have a dying VP, it works in XP SP2, apparently Randy doesn't want to do anything else...

*cue's Eagle's "Get over it"...

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  #63  
Old 06-21-2006, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratech
You don't have a dying VP, it works in XP SP2, apparently Randy doesn't want to do anything else...
au contraire, when something stagnates it is indeed dying.

VP still has a long ways to go and any RL pinball player could tell you that. or even a propinball player for that matter.

if VP was "perfect and complete" than UC would have only had to make minor changes for their project. instead, being realists, they saw that it still needed a lot of work and so they spent a lot of manhours and money improving it, particularly in the area of physics.

i got tired a long time ago by the mediocre flipper physics in VP- it's hard to take any table seriously, no matter how beautiful, in which i can't even do a basic drop catch or live catch. if i owe anybody at this point it's UC for wanting to share with me all the hard work they did, even if randy will never let me see it.
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  #64  
Old 06-21-2006, 02:03 AM
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Being a RL player I can tell by what you just wrote that you are not nic. Propinballers can tell you what is real? Get real man. Stagnate = death? ProPinball is long dead then, it was fun, but it was not real. If you can imagine it then it is real? That's bull shit. VP being real now that UC modified it? Bull again. It's a vidio game nic. It is a game. The game is yours to play or not. The game is for you I guess to see how close you can emulate a real pinball game. With UC it's the same, don't you think? or is close no longer an issue, can you make a real table with it? Are the physics that much better? can you fell the ball rolling with the tips of your fingers? Can you see and hear the ball jump over a piece of dirt? Do lights light things up? Does it smell like a pinball machine? Does it have glass now? and clear ramps? do ramps fall now if nothing is holding them up?
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  #65  
Old 06-21-2006, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockman
I think Randy would release it if you restored my membership.
Every now and then you post something funny.... I think you've suffered enough, I vote for you to be reinstated, but with Nic holding his finger on the Ban button.
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  #66  
Old 06-21-2006, 02:54 AM
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er...no, we're not getting any money whatsoever for vpm. Sorry to disappoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratech
I'm not praising Randy, just saying VP is his to do with as he pleases.

Of course I appreciate the VPM team, but they are going to get money from this deal, and so are the people who designed tables that are used, if they are screwed, they could go after the people who took over after Foley.

Anyone else who donated should've realised they weren't going to get anything for their time and effort, I'm sure Destruk wants to preserve tables, even PacDude, although PD should be getting some money, and if not I assume he'll sue if his work is used without his consent.

But lets face the fact that through the work of others we got a cool program(2 actually) and can play most any pinball table ever made, how is that not payment enough?

It was people's love of pinball that made VP successful, so? so Randy's going to make money, that's capitalism. So are the people who's tables were accepted and the VPM team, or there will be nasty lawsuits...

I don't think these tables will be all that successful, but I prefer "real" pinball, and can't imagine putting quarters into what I can play at home for free...

I put quarters into real machines, even easy to break Stern tables, particularly if they are Ripley's Believe it or Not, although PacDude hooked me on Addams Family *damn you PacDude for making me a TAF addict! *

My point is, we were never owed anything and should appreciate what we have. Fuck Randy if he doesn't want to be a part of the community. That's his loss...

But stop the whining over Randy owes the Community...He doesn't owe anyone anything...

let it all out!
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  #67  
Old 06-21-2006, 08:05 AM
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Randy doesn't owe anyone anything ? I guess it all depends on your point of view. He never should have released VP to the public then, kept it all to himself, then of course we would not be here having this discussion and we would not have a VP at all. Anytime you release something to the public, you are opening yourself up to the world and saying "look what i've created, give it a try" and you can expect both positive and negative opinions on your work. It just so happens that VP is a great little program so yes, there are many End User's who only want to see all of the bugs worked out. Does that mean Randy owes it to his End User's to work those bugs out personally, again he shouldn't have released it in the first place if he didn't intend to maintain it. At the very least, let the community (a community that evolved because of a program he released to the public) know of his intentions. Come on, how hard is it to drop a line and say, "I will no longer maintain VP", I will release UC's version of VP", but to be kept in the dark is just not right or responsible. I think that's all anyone really want's from Randy, some kind of response one way or another. I'm greatful for what he has given us and yes he did come along and fix the SP2 issues, but look how he handled that. Basically he came, he fixed, he left. Quite simple and effective to say the least, however, what would have been the harm in saying to your many devoted End User's "Development on VP will not continue" or for that matter "Fuck Off", at least we would know something.

I think we're all aware of the greatness of VP/VPM combined and to be able to play pinballs, some of which we'll never get the oppourtunity in real life can feel a void in a pinheads heart. I'm very greatful for that and if there was never another update again, well, we'd have to deal with that which is what we are doing right now, because we don't know if it will ever get updated, but we do have some expectations even if they never come to fruition. It is possible to not only be greatful for what you've been given and at the same time come to expect more of that greatness, it's only human nature. That doesn't make us ingrates, only human.
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  #68  
Old 06-21-2006, 08:15 AM
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Right, Randy owes us fuck all, though ask yourself this, what would be the right thing to do?

I know I'd feel obliged to keep the community informed at the very least. I'm not disappointed, just bemused.
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  #69  
Old 06-21-2006, 11:07 PM
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I think you guys really need to grow up a bit and realise that programs given out "for free" may not be perfect. Heck, PacDude and others suggested pinball authors owe us nothing and if they want to take their tables and have them removed by sites that it's their right, others argued that pinball devs could lock tables, not share pictures and files used to make their tables, so why is Randy any different than pinball devs?

There could be a lot of reasons why Randy isn't responding, all of which are his choice. Do I think he might be acting like an asshole? Yup, but that's his right to be an asshole if he wants...

Black's going to be even worse than Randy on VP and loads of people kiss his butt. I just enjoy what I have and anything added is gravy. I've contributed to AJs *not much* but I don't see it as much of an obligation beyond the more > 5 downloads a day...

Guys, whining about Randy and his meaness isn't going to accomplish anything, If I were you, I'd go to a bar and get some booze, there *might* at least be a pinball machine there...
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  #70  
Old 06-21-2006, 11:11 PM
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Some rather interesting 'christian' thoughts there Paratech. LMFAO!

Eh, I think I may just do that, pity the only bar in town doesn't have any pinball machines, oh well....
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  #71  
Old 06-21-2006, 11:26 PM
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Here, for Karaoke, It's a Parody of Mickey

"Hey Randy - you've been nowhere in sight
It's been a little long
You think you're all that, but you've done us all wrong
Why can't you share your VP plans, we want an update before long
Randy
'Cause you never say a thing
you're like a mime gone wrong
and we're going to whine till you play along

Randy?
please Randy
Please
Update us, placate us
Don't go away
Randy

Oh Randy
what a pity you can't understand
you took us by the balls, and now we demand
Oh Randy
You're so quiet
don't you understand
It's coders like you
Randy
Please PM us
Randy

Oh
Randy
Don't break your code
Randy
Oh
Randy, you took away our pinballs
Will we ever see
a bugfree update

There's nothing to lose, but you seem to abuse
Randy
So come back and give us more pin

Anyway you wanna code
We'll take it as we can
Open source
please
Randy
don't leave us with no update
Randy
Oh Randy
what a pity you can't understand
Oh Randy
what a pity you can't understand
Oh Randy
what a pity you can't understand

"

BTW, how do we know Randy is a Christian?
If I were in his position, I'd say something, but I'm not.
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  #72  
Old 06-21-2006, 11:49 PM
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Paratech, I wish you were more like Randy.....

Shockman, are trying to tell me they banned you without following the guidelines?
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  #73  
Old 06-22-2006, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob
Paratech, I wish you were more like Randy.....

Shockman, are trying to tell me they banned you without following the guidelines?
Bob hates me!
Randy won't update VP
Shockman took his tables away from VPF
PacDude hates me!
PacDude won't update WhiteWater with Bigfoot reels!



Cue "Get over it"

*goes to play VP*
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  #74  
Old 06-22-2006, 01:03 AM
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Paratech, I don't hate you, I just think you are a fucking idiot. Your posts are as stupid as Rob46's. Your comprehension skills are that of a moron. Are you on drugs or something? This goes ditto for Shockman....
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  #75  
Old 06-22-2006, 09:44 PM
Paratech Paratech is offline
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Oh? Because I disagree with your keen intellect?
I guess you missed my sarcasm in the previous post.
Or is it that I'm not in your whiny self righeous cliche that acts like you are the world and everything's owed to you?
Maybe I'm just a pinball fan who gets fed up of whiners who were given tools to recreate nearly every pinball machine ever made, but aren't ever happy because their egos and insatiable desire to have everything on a silver platter clouds their judgement?
Cues "Get over it"
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  #76  
Old 06-22-2006, 11:56 PM
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So he says as boots up yet another recreation someone else made for him.... Seems to be Paratech is the one that is whining about us whining. Physician, heal thyself.
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  #77  
Old 06-23-2006, 12:12 AM
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PacDude, you whine about table athors rights, saying you can do with your work as you please, how is this different than Randy?
You were helped in obtaining graphics, ROMs, material for tables, but those who provided the data weren't owed squat, how is that different?
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  #78  
Old 06-24-2006, 03:31 AM
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I think you're just grasping at straws and making shit up now, Paratech. I don't see myself withholding an updated version of my tables or not responding to public inquiry. And we all know I NEVER take requests (be it tables or features). [rolls eyes]
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  #79  
Old 06-24-2006, 10:13 PM
Paratech Paratech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacdude
I think you're just grasping at straws and making shit up now, Paratech. I don't see myself withholding an updated version of my tables or not responding to public inquiry. And we all know I NEVER take requests (be it tables or features). [rolls eyes]
No, read carefully, I said you SUPPORT authors removing tables, locking tables, basically doing anything they want with their work, and that IF YOU CHOSE TO DO SO, you'd br doing it. I didn't say you would or are doing so, but you've considered doing so and said authors have that right...so if you believe authors can do with their tables as they see fit, why can't Randy do the same? or heck the VPM team as well?

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  #80  
Old 06-24-2006, 10:32 PM
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Yes, Randy can do as he likes, though as I've said he is not doing the 'right' thing by not keeping his beta testers informed. This being the case it's hardly so very surprising many are not to pleased by his silence on such matters.
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  #81  
Old 06-24-2006, 10:47 PM
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I'm not happy about it, but bitching about it isn't going to change anything.
There are things I wish the MAME team would do, that they don't give a shit about, but if I whined about them to the degree some here are whining, I'd be banned at mame.com, maybe from dealing with them for over 7 years, I'm accustomed to people not giving a shit about the end user...

But how about a comparison? Many of us play pinball machines that are in piss poor shape, sometimes we know in advance the machines are fucked up, sometimes we find out after dropping $2 or more into the machine...

The operator, should keep the machine in working order, but we can't do anything if he's a tightwad and doesn't want to maintain his equipment, of course if we don't put money in the machines, he'll probably remove the machine and possibly junk it, but we can't do a thing about it.

I have purchased shitty software that had horrible bugs in it, and I couldn't return it, now you can't even trade in such software *PC* at stores like Electronics Boutique, and it might not even sell for 1/3 what you paid for it on EBay. It isn't right, but you have to deal with the way the system works, which is why many people won't play shoddy pinball machines, buy PC software, etc...

It's a choice we have to make. I choose playing VP because I miss playing "real pinball" the companies that own machines around me *save the Dry Dock in Conneaut Lake, Pa* don't maintain their tables, and VP is better than nothing. I've given AJ money to be able to download more than 5 tables a day, and I enjoy PC Pinball, but I know that there are bad things that come with being a member of the community...but its worth the hassle...
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  #82  
Old 06-24-2006, 11:15 PM
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Actually, if you're really passionate about it, you could without doubt cause such an operator some grief, by complaining to higher authorities within the industry. I'm sure there are some governing authorities even in such bussinesses, something may indeed come of it, though if you do nothing, then nothing will change.

Same with your software, though of course this is not the case with VP and as you say it's pretty pointless to bitch about it, never the less, I understand why some do and I feel they have that right to do so and much of it is deserved, not very constructive, though still I don't blame them or see it as wrong.
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  #83  
Old 06-24-2006, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevOz
Actually, if you're really passionate about it, you could without doubt cause such an operator some grief, by complaining to higher authorities within the industry. I'm sure there are some governing authorities even in such bussinesses, something may indeed come of it, though if you do nothing, then nothing will change.

Same with your software, though of course this is not the case with VP and as you say it's pretty pointless to bitch about it, never the less, I understand why some do and I feel they have that right to do so and much of it is deserved, not very constructive, though still I don't blame them or see it as wrong.
Not in the US, vending companies don't have to maintain their equipment. I've given the local vending company Hell for not maintaining their pins and was told to either buy them, or not play them. I don't have room in my cramped apartment for a pin, so basically, I'm screwed as are many people in the US who see pinball machines falling apart...

As far as software, there's nothing you can do in the US either, many software companies won't even respond to customer suggestions/complaints about their programs, heck they even add software protection that can fuck up your computer and apparently that's legal, look up starforce and the Sony Rootkit protection that was included on music CDs, both can mess up a PC and StarForce can *supposably* break CD/DVD players on a PC...

Trust me in the US consumers opinions mean shit, politicians owe big business for helping them get elected and the voters best interests are ignored...

And like I said, people can whine, bitch, and moan, but that's not going to make Randy release another version of VP...and we've known how Randy acts for YEARS...

It's a dead horse...Mr. Ed's dead...Get over it...
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  #84  
Old 06-24-2006, 11:55 PM
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Gee, I have no problems returning software at Sam's Club. I ask before I buy it, I ask if I can bring it back if it doesn't work on my system and they have always said "yes" and I have returned 20 or so opened pc games for refund.

Quote:
Trust me in the US consumers opinions mean shit, politicians owe big business for helping them get elected and the voters best interests are ignored...
Who's crying now? This is the greatest country in the world, you can do or be anything you want, but you have to do it yourself, there's no one going to do it for you. I now feel sorry for you.... You are the weakest link.... Goodbye!
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  #85  
Old 06-25-2006, 12:04 AM
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Also your bitching about them bitching about Randy, how is that going to work then?

Better to let them vent in my opinion, rather then make yourself a target by bitching about them.
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  #86  
Old 06-25-2006, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob
Gee, I have no problems returning software at Sam's Club. I ask before I buy it, I ask if I can bring it back if it doesn't work on my system and they have always said "yes" and I have returned 20 or so opened pc games for refund.

Quote:
Trust me in the US consumers opinions mean shit, politicians owe big business for helping them get elected and the voters best interests are ignored...
Who's crying now? This is the greatest country in the world, you can do or be anything you want, but you have to do it yourself, there's no one going to do it for you. I now feel sorry for you.... You are the weakest link.... Goodbye!
I'm pointing out a fact that software companies own the Republican and Democratic parties. Please leave your patriotic bullshit in la la land...

I'm not driving 70 miles to go to the nearest Sam's club, and I accept the fact that Electronics Boutique and other companies don't support returning opened software, in a few years it'll be the same everywhere...Companies can't absorb the losses of people unhappy with their programs...

I almost think you just have a personal hate on for me Bob, I'd bet if I said the sky was blue you'd pick a fight. If I were you, I'd be happy I could go to messageboards and call people fucking idiots, because most responsible boards punish users for namecalling...

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Old 06-25-2006, 12:23 AM
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If you want whining, you should've seen me at a local bar where they replaced a Cyclone pinball table with a fucking Golden Tee Golf game, because "the pin kept breaking"...

See that's economics for you, the Golden Tee game is easier to maintain so it replaces the cool pinball table...

It's US economics at its best...
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Old 06-25-2006, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob
Gee, I have no problems returning software at Sam's Club. I ask before I buy it, I ask if I can bring it back if it doesn't work on my system and they have always said "yes" and I have returned 20 or so opened pc games for refund.
20 games? Why do you keep buying them if they don't work on your pc? You must be one hell of a guy because I have trouble trying to return anything.
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Old 06-25-2006, 04:19 AM
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Honestly Paratech, I don't really give a crap what you think anymore. I've got better things to concern myself with than your estimation of whether or not Randy 'owes' anyone anything. It's all pointless anyway.
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Old 06-25-2006, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratech
I'd bet if I said the sky was blue you'd pick a fight.
It's very grey here at the moment buddy. Lighten up it's meant to be an enjoyable hobby
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