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  #31  
Old 06-19-2006, 12:32 AM
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@paratech,
i think bob nailed it in a recent post somewhere, but my take would be somethng like-

randy directly benefited from all the work people did for VP by getting a lucrative contract. he made the tool and has been the longtime hero of the scene, but without the community VP would have been nothing and he would have gotten diddly. he's also retained rather draconian control over VP and never allowed anyone other than black (a failed experiment) or UC (again, for money) to continue to develop and improve it. that's the opposite of goodwill and reciprocation.

at a rough guess, most developers of serious commercial and opensource tools have prolly put in 10x or more manhours than randy has put into VP. after all these years i just don't see randy being the hero anymore, but the founder who for his own inscrutable reasons is now the control freak who doesn't want to share.

black benefited from VP by being able to directly base FP off of it. as some people have pointed out, FP even has some of the same bugs VP does(!) and FP is a potential money-maker for black.

AJ out of the three has arguably benefited the least and paid the most. he goes into his own pockets around $50/month to keep VPF running and is the primary backup to IPDB for ROMs. on the other hand he keeps tight control over his site and is rarely around to keep it updated. that's just frustrating for everyone.

if VP had never existed and absorbed all the energy and effort put into it, then other projects like emilia may well have turned into the tool we use to play pinball today and would most likely be far more advanced than VP is today. you can bet the PM team would have existed no matter which tool became the standard, because WPCMAME predated VP.

so my answer is "yes we WERE entitled to a free pinball tool"- anybody who was willing to contribute to such a project for free was entitled. it's not charity when you're giving gifts back to the original gift-giver, see?
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  #32  
Old 06-19-2006, 01:10 AM
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Not really, we KNEW what Randy was like going into it, he's not a hero or villain, he created the program, he let us use it for free, he never promised us anything, heck many of us were expecting the program to *possibly* go commercial for a while...

When you are given a program for FREE, you get what you pay for, if MAME or any other emulator went commercial, it'd be the same way, and the authors whose tables are used do deserve money, but thats few and far between...Most of us are just playing "simulated" pinball for free, we aren't owed anything...

At least Randy did put up a version that fixed XP SP2, and he took off the expiration date, so we can freely play his program forever, I don't think he ever promised us that much, so we have more than we started with, if Randy has made a few $$$ in the process, good for him...

But noone in the community was coerced or forced to do squat, it was a volunteer situation, and still is, if Randy doesn't want us to have an updated VP, that's his right, even if I think it makes him an asshole in the process...

Look at the authors who took away their tables, they were sometimes helped in making their tables, but they own the rights to their tables, and if they want them removed, that's their right, of course I still call it acting like an asshole, that's my right as well...

But the short of it is, we never owned the rights to anything, and should feel privildged to be able to play hundreds of pinball tables on our PC for free...
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  #33  
Old 06-19-2006, 01:15 AM
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Nice post Nic, very eloquent, I wish I had the patience to respond in such a fashion, but alas, it's not to be... Paratech falls under the same classification as the aforementioned thread title. I feel better now.
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  #34  
Old 06-19-2006, 01:31 AM
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No you fall under it for thinking anyone owes you squat. Did anyone seriously expect Randy to give them something for their time and effort? Well they were mistaken, it was a gift, as VP is a gift, enjoy it. Stop acting like you had a contract with Randy. Noone other than Black has had a contract with him, and what he wants to do with his IP is his business...

You're free to take him to court if you feel otherwise, but you'd lose big time...because you were never promised anything.
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  #35  
Old 06-19-2006, 01:38 AM
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I agree with Paratech, it's a gift that we received, everything else is gravy, blaming Randy is wrong.
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  #36  
Old 06-19-2006, 02:01 AM
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Paratech, I never said anyone owed me squat. I said there are a bunch of weirdass people in this community and you certainly are one of them. I can't believe how you can totally fuck up a thread with your same 2 or 3 dumbass responses that you post in every thread topic. You are a moron!!
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  #37  
Old 06-19-2006, 02:15 AM
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thanks bob. i don't know about the eloquence but i seem to be in an arguing mood tonight.

paratech:
>we KNEW what Randy was like going into it,
> he's not a hero or villain

neither of those statements make any sense to me. nobody that i know of in the scene knew randy from adam ant going into the VP project.

and of course he was a hero. if he wasn't a hero for a good long while then who else in the scene was, besides the VPM team and the top authors?


> we never owned the rights to anything, and
> should feel privildged to be able to play
> hundreds of pinball tables on our PC for
> free...

you seem to be in a lecture mode directed at greedy teenagers, but i'm not talking about joe-average-VP player who shows up to grab all their favorite tables and get the help they need to solve their VP problems then disappear. i'm not talking about that 99% segment of the VP scene who should indeed be grateful for being in pinball candyland.

i'm talking about the people who've been working hard on behalf of VP for all these years- collecting images and manuals, bugtesting tables, developing the VBS files, re-creating the tables, emulating and collecting the ROMs, making the cool original tables that showcase VP's possibility, hosting the websites, serving on the staffs to try keep the scene running healthy, donating to the sites to help pay expenses and all the other things that go into making VP as healthy and active as it can be. these people have put an enormous number of manhours and actual real money into making VP great, and are just as important to VP as the founder was.

if these people aren't owed at least the benefit of communication then it's a slap in the face as far as i'm concerned. all randy would have to do would be to drop by every once in a while and describe what's happening (if anything). for example, all he would have had to say in the last six months or so is "i got the UC update and it needs a few changes before it can be released to the public. i'm extremely busy right now but i'm hoping to get to it in a couple months." then people like me would have nothing to whine about and would be optimistic and more energetic, something which would prolly keep positive momentum in the scene going.

nobody is trying to disrespect randy, but i want him to treat us more like the partners in VP that we by merit are. i rarely play tables anyway, but i still want what's best for the scene. take a look at my harddrive if you don't believe me.
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  #38  
Old 06-19-2006, 02:24 AM
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I think we should Blame Randy for:

1> Complacency -- no response to the community = doesn't give a shit

2> Not letting UC/VR release the updated VP that has a number of improvements. It would take no more of his time than "OK" to make a lot of people happy.


And yes VP *DID* go commercial.

What's better in the updated VP? Forget EVERYTHING else it has improved (and that's a lot) it's still worth having because it FIXES the damn reel glitch problems that happens on over half the video cards and drivers out there in some form or the other (now that it regularly screws up with both ATI *and* Nvidia cards. Why? Because if nothing else it was designed for a version of DirectX that came out shortly before the extinction of the dinosaurs. The new VP is fully updated to the latest DirectX and is fully hardware accelerated compliant now. No more disabling HW acceleration just to get Kurt's tables to display properly....

Free gift? No. Randy's been compensated now, largely due to the VP community making VP a success so that it caught Ultracade's interest who then paid him to use it. Yeah, I've heard about authors supposedly being able to get royalties if they're work is used, but thus far there are no sales and so there are no royalties. Randy is the ONLY one to get paid from all this. So "free gift" my ass.
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  #39  
Old 06-19-2006, 02:50 AM
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Hey, if taking him to court means I'd get to see him, so be it! But I don't think he'd show up.
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  #40  
Old 06-19-2006, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolas.b
nobody that i know of in the scene knew randy from adam ant going into the VP project.
... I was just waiting for the Adam Ant reference ...... Staaaaaand and Deliver, wooow o wow o wow, ..... your VP or your life ....

Yeah, great song that one. Bit dated now though
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  #41  
Old 06-19-2006, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob
Paratech, I never said anyone owed me squat. I said there are a bunch of weirdass people in this community and you certainly are one of them. I can't believe how you can totally fuck up a thread with your same 2 or 3 dumbass responses that you post in every thread topic. You are a moron!!
Why because I'm not a warez kiddy crying because big bad Randy isn't giving me more freebies?

Because I don't act like a loser who seems to feel an entitlement to other people's property, and even when given hundreds of free tables still wants more?

Sorry to break it you guys, but you wanted to recreate commercial pinball tables and had a program given to you that'd help make your dreams a reality, you've invested time in making the program do some great recreations, but you aren't "owed" anything.

If I were Randy, and I saw how the community seems to be driven by a bunch of thankless greedy losers who want everything free and keep demanding like little whiny children, the last thing I'd want to do is waste my time helping them.

You guys have hundreds of commercial tables playable in VP, plus thousands of "homebrew" tables, what more do you expect? Does baby need a new binky?

Folks, the next time you get your hands on a shareware program, think before you devote hundreds of hours of your lives to messing with it, because in the real world, when you get something for free, you aren't entitled to anything because when you commit time into any similiar project, it doesn't entitle you to anything.

Randy created VP and its his to do with as he sees fit, if you don't like that, delete everything to do with it on your hard drive and go buy a commercial game, and even then, you won't be able to try and bully the commercial software company to do what you want...

Listen to the Eagles song Get over it, because you guys need to do so and get a fucking life...
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  #42  
Old 06-19-2006, 10:00 PM
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Paratech, you quote me, but your response has nothing to do with what I've posted.... Once again, you're an idiot. I don't really care if VP is ever updated, I know how it works, at this moment, pretty good. I'm not talking about the software, I'm talking about the weirdo's in the community. Look at the thread title.... It's about PEOPLE!!!! Fucking Idiots!!!! Pay attention!!!! You and Shockman fuck up thread after thread with your idiotic off-topic posts, which you both actually think are on-topic.
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  #43  
Old 06-19-2006, 10:11 PM
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Not really, theres a bunch of whiners here who think they can take whatever they want and that they're owed the fucking world.
Guess what? you aren't...
and frankly, I could care less what you have to say to me, as you can only call me names, obviously you can't take a stand on VP,,,go back to your binky...]
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  #44  
Old 06-19-2006, 10:39 PM
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I call you names, because I know spiritually you can handle it. I don't understand your, "you can't take a stand on VP" comment, it makes no sense to me. I play VP, I like VP, I make VP tables, I have no problems with VP. What's a "binky?" It sounds kinky.
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  #45  
Old 06-19-2006, 10:57 PM
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It's pretty obvious you side with people who don't appreciate what they have and could destroy the community with their demands. When people fail to stand for what's right, they resort to name calling...

We're blessed, even Gottlieb Lawyers seem to not be down the communities throat, there are multiple sites with two ROM sites, and many sites with tables, try that with arcade emulation...

We don't have a Nintendo hunting down everyone who wants to make pins playable on the PC, and even Stern doesn't get angry when we make 3 year old tables playable...

We have almost everything a pinball lover could want, yet, there are many in this thread who think that they're owed even more, which is sad. Heck over at VPF someone was whining when a "new" table was made available "I wish PacDude had done it, it'd have been better"...WTF? How about thanking the author who recreated the table and leave it at that?

These are the kind of people you politically "get into bed" with, these are the losers who will fuck things up for the community, and these people are the serpents in the garden of Eden...

A binky is what a baby sucks on, a pacifier....
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  #46  
Old 06-19-2006, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratech
It's pretty obvious you side with people who don't appreciate what they have and could destroy the community with their demands. When people fail to stand for what's right, they resort to name calling...
I didn't know I sided with anyone and I don't see anyone making demands, I see people posting their opinions. I call people names for fun, I don't usually pick on the weak or feeble minded, but for you, I make an exception.

Quote:
We're blessed, even Gottlieb Lawyers seem to not be down the communities throat, there are multiple sites with two ROM sites, and many sites with tables, try that with arcade emulation...
I really don't give a crap about Roms, I can take them or leave them. I don't need no stinkin' Roms to enjoy pinball.

Quote:
We don't have a Nintendo hunting down everyone who wants to make pins playable on the PC, and even Stern doesn't get angry when we make 3 year old tables playable...
Whoopie, I can play tables that only slightly resemble their real counterparts.

Quote:
We have almost everything a pinball lover could want, yet, there are many in this thread who think that they're owed even more, which is sad. Heck over at VPF someone was whining when a "new" table was made available "I wish PacDude had done it, it'd have been better"...WTF? How about thanking the author who recreated the table and leave it at that?
PD really should make all of the tables that require Roms. We probably need an assembly line, with PD being the last stop for the table before releasing it.

Quote:
These are the kind of people you politically "get into bed" with, these are the losers who will fuck things up for the community, and these people are the serpents in the garden of Eden...
I didn't realize I was sleeping with anyone, I thought I've told just about everybody to fuck off at one time or another. Would you make a list of these serpents and post it here, it could be useful as a reference for newbies.

Quote:
A binky is what a baby sucks on, a pacifier....
It wasn't in the dictionary, so I can only assume it's what you call your blanket.
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  #47  
Old 06-19-2006, 11:41 PM
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Not my baby.
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  #48  
Old 06-19-2006, 11:56 PM
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hehe, sorry Shocky, I didn't mean to upset you.... I saw the new MMPM up at that other site, you know, the one you have access to.
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  #49  
Old 06-19-2006, 11:56 PM
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I agree with 'tech. Why? because he is right, and you are not.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:04 AM
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Before you jump in bed with 'tech, he thinks you are one of the serpents.

Talk to the finger, bitch.

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  #51  
Old 06-20-2006, 12:13 AM
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It is at that site...

http://www.pinballsim.com/viewtables...by=lastupdated
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  #52  
Old 06-20-2006, 12:25 AM
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Actually Paratech, all those recreated tables were NOT made by Randy. So I'm not sure why you think Randy is God's gift to pinball. He stopped doing his part like 5 years ago. It's all been the authors and VPM team since then. I think credit should go where credit is due. Yes, Randy made the editor and Randy is being compensated. But he did NOT give us recreations of our favorite pinball games. You'd do better to thank the VPM team for their efforts there and the authors for their work to create the table and tie them together. You see it's all a triangle. Saying the hypotenuse is the ONLY important side of the triangle misses the point it is a triangle and would only be a line if that was all that was important.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:48 AM
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Because without Randy those tables wouldn't exist PacDude, he gave people the tools, for free, what more do you expect? Heck he didn't have to fix the SP2 bug, did he? or release it when he did, but he released a fix and now we have a bunch of tables...be happy you have a free tool...
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:51 AM
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And yes, people who made tables that are used by UltraCade should be reimbursed, but I'm optimistic that they will be reimbursed...
I'm going back to playing pinball, the rest of you can bitch all you want...night!
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Old 06-20-2006, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratech
Because without Randy those tables wouldn't exist PacDude, he gave people the tools, for free, what more do you expect?
that's like saying anybody who founds something deserves all the credit and gets to exercise control in perpetuity.

thank god the first guy who invented fire isn't still alive or else he'd own all the rights to humanity's accomplishments.

so the next time i hear you say something that makes sense, paratech, i'll be sure to thank your parents since they deserve all the credit.
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Old 06-20-2006, 03:07 PM
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It's really not new and improved shockman, I still think yours is the best version ever made.
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Old 06-20-2006, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolas.b
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paratech
Because without Randy those tables wouldn't exist PacDude, he gave people the tools, for free, what more do you expect?
that's like saying anybody who founds something deserves all the credit and gets to exercise control in perpetuity.

thank god the first guy who invented fire isn't still alive or else he'd own all the rights to humanity's accomplishments.

so the next time i hear you say something that makes sense, paratech, i'll be sure to thank your parents since they deserve all the credit.
Apples to Oranges, he made the program everyone's using to make and play tables. You nor anyone else paid money to obtain the program. Even if you paid for the program, there were no promises of squat. Randy's neither a saint or the devil, he's a person who made a program that's used to recreate a ton of arcade pinball machines and some homebrews...

Sure people made tables, submitted code and such, but Randy didn't point a gun at anyone and demand what was volunteered. He can sell his code and do with it as he wants...

There is no obligation on Randy's part to give anything back to the community, we should be happy he fixed the SP2 bug and took out the expiration date...

Heck, I've donated to AJ and the Dumping Project for MAME, but other than unlimited downloads at AJs, I haven't expected anything else, particularly from MAME. If AJ decides to make it only last a year and require $10 a year for unlimited downloads, I'd still support him and his decision, because nothing lasts forever and you can't expect too much for $10...

I think we've obtained a lot in VP and should just be grateful for what we have, the pinball companies could have went after us, shut down AJs site, and killed VPM, but unlike arcade companies, they didn't go after the people "preserving" their IP....

So if you want to whine that Randy owes us something, stay in your deluded little world, but I want no part of it...



Randy is being mean, he won't give me a new binky.
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  #58  
Old 06-21-2006, 12:01 AM
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Randy this....Randy that....without Wpcmame and the VPM team....and the table authors VP would never have been even 1/100 as popular as it is now.

Why not give the VPM team the credit they deserve....instead of constantly praising Randy...the fact is that he abandoned us years ago......PacDude and Destruk are have kept almost single handedly VP alive at times.

And how valuable you think VP would be for David Foley...without VPM support? And how many quality tables Randy has created himself? I don't think Randy ever guessed what could be done with VP....how far these authors could take it....Scapino and PD have exceeded its limits many times.

And Black.... he was always an arrogant ass.....couldn't care less about him and Future Pinball.....he can kiss my lilywhite puckered rosebud.
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  #59  
Old 06-21-2006, 12:33 AM
Paratech Paratech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kristian
Randy this....Randy that....without Wpcmame and the VPM team....and the table authors VP would never have been even 1/100 as popular as it is now.

Why not give the VPM team the credit they deserve....instead of constantly praising Randy...the fact is that he abandoned us years ago......PacDude and Destruk are have kept almost single handedly VP alive at times.

And how valuable you think VP would be for David Foley...without VPM support? And how many quality tables Randy has created himself? I don't think Randy ever guessed what could be done with VP....how far these authors could take it....Scapino and PD have exceeded its limits many times.

And Black.... he was always an arrogant ass.....couldn't care less about him and Future Pinball.....he can kiss my lilywhite puckered rosebud.
I'm not praising Randy, just saying VP is his to do with as he pleases.

Of course I appreciate the VPM team, but they are going to get money from this deal, and so are the people who designed tables that are used, if they are screwed, they could go after the people who took over after Foley.

Anyone else who donated should've realised they weren't going to get anything for their time and effort, I'm sure Destruk wants to preserve tables, even PacDude, although PD should be getting some money, and if not I assume he'll sue if his work is used without his consent.

But lets face the fact that through the work of others we got a cool program(2 actually) and can play most any pinball table ever made, how is that not payment enough?

It was people's love of pinball that made VP successful, so? so Randy's going to make money, that's capitalism. So are the people who's tables were accepted and the VPM team, or there will be nasty lawsuits...

I don't think these tables will be all that successful, but I prefer "real" pinball, and can't imagine putting quarters into what I can play at home for free...

I put quarters into real machines, even easy to break Stern tables, particularly if they are Ripley's Believe it or Not, although PacDude hooked me on Addams Family *damn you PacDude for making me a TAF addict! *

My point is, we were never owed anything and should appreciate what we have. Fuck Randy if he doesn't want to be a part of the community. That's his loss...

But stop the whining over Randy owes the Community...He doesn't owe anyone anything...

let it all out!
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Old 06-21-2006, 12:45 AM
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speaking about "little worlds"...

your problem, paratech, is that you completely miss the difference between people being ungrateful for something versus people who are grateful but also ask for a little bit of reciprocation for their hard work.
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