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  #31  
Old 03-14-2015, 12:01 AM
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LOL! Well, I am a "Stones" man. But, oddly enough, I think I find myself on the "Beatles" side of this argument. I'm choosing the release that's more polished, while you're going for the one that more embodies a "rock out with your cock out" Stonesish attitude. I can't tell you how weird this feels!
I'm well aware that, at this point, we're more or less exchanging ideas; I think we've both made some very valid arguments for our respective choices, even though my arguments were more validier. I will say this for Smile... when it did an awesome song, it did an awesome song. It's impossible to ignore the genius of Heroes and Villains and I wish so hard that I could erase the first 793 times I've heard Good Vibrations so I could listen to it for only the 329th time. While Sounds may not have some of those extremely high points, it's the overall effort that is so... assured, for an artist so young. Brian took a wrecking ball to the Wall of Sound and entered territory unknown for a rock'n'roll artist at the time; he borrowed from what Nelson Riddle and Sinatra had been doing for years, threw in a little Burt Bacharach, yet still making it sound indelibly rock'n'roll. And let's not forget the source. There were plenty of people who had no respect for the Beach Boys (my brother being one, Paul LeMat's character in American Graffitti for another). What a shock to discover that rock's answer to George Gershwin also wrote goofy stuff like "Surfin' Safari". I really think Brian suffered the slump that so many musical artists have after a groundbreaking triumph. I look at Smile as Brian's Lifehouse, Pete Townshend's follow-up to Tommy. Fortunately, he saved enough songs from that train wreck to make Who's Next. Michael Jackson wasn't as lucky with "everything that came after Thriller". Smile is certainly more adventurous than Sounds... I'm just not sure the payoff for the adventure is equal.
Again, I just like writing a lot of bullshit and am looking at this as our 19th century French salon on Brian Wilson. Although I would ask this; that you listen to the attached file with the headphones on to really dig on the whole production. I have had the pleasure of owning three of those Mobile Fidelity albums in my life (one Bruce and... you guessed it!... two Stones!) and the mastering on this just may beat them out!
So... yeah... big neighborhood barbeque at the compound today to celebrate the mercury climbing above 60! Whoo-hoo! I'm full of ribs, weed and beer! Yep... you just read three pages of drunken, stoned rambling.

EDIT: And y'all better really appreciate that song I posted... it was a bear to find! That's right boys, at 17,875 songs, I now have 40 days and 40 nights worth of music! Perfect if you find yourself on an ark or wandering through the desert preparing for your ultimate battle against Satan. "Control over all the kingdoms of all the earth? Are you kidding? I've got Elvis Costello's first four albums all right here!"
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  #32  
Old 03-14-2015, 03:28 AM
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I'm missing my cat. They're doing business on it.
I would have to wonder how much of Brian's challenges were due to Murry's/family manipulations. Like...it's the same damn thing. Everything is business.
The folks have been saying that Nobody gets it without the group. So I would believe that it was no different for him.
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Old 03-14-2015, 03:40 AM
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Aw... kitty! I hope you find him/her. We're supposed to catsit next week. It's been about 14 years since I had feline company. I remember that typing on a keyboard much like I am now is a bit more challenging.
As far as Brian's challenges vis-a-vis his father... I'd peg it at about 90%.
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Old 03-14-2015, 03:59 AM
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Y'know. On Topic with absolutely no consciousness whatsoever.

Brian sings a song of tranquility. Murry takes the money and invests in Lockheed, war bonds, and Dow Chemical. Considers Hughes Aircraft.

Brian drops out, walks out, hits dope, encounters the likes of Charles Manson, submerges into "his Blue Period" and has a nightmare about laser-guided missiles..Murry denies Brian access to the piano as punishment, and cashes in Brian's laser-guided missile nightmare as a product.

The antithetical of Brian is likely Jim Morrison and his father.
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Old 03-14-2015, 04:08 AM
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What do you make of Lennon singing "All I can tell you is, Brother, you have to wait" in the fast and slow renditions of "Revolution"?

Could mean nothing.
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Old 03-14-2015, 06:57 AM
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@bill,
that's one of those many tracks i'm talking about on pet sounds that i'm still unsure about. as in, good song or a schmaltzy / awkward song? really, it has elements of both.

great vocal, ridiculous drums (still not sure whether i love'em or hate'em), competent yet somewhat hammy background vocals... and most of the usual aural elements that appeared on brian's other songs of the period... but overall a certain stuffiness and labored quality to the composition and phrasing. which i guess is why brian goes for such an expressive, emotional finale. maybe this song is somewhat about his long-standing desire to break out of his demon-boxes.

...

not sure how much brian had to do with charles manson. the book said that dennis was out one day, saw a couple of cute girls, and enticed them home for fun times. later he went out, left them in the house, and came back to find charlie and a full harem of manson-groupies... almost all young women.

they pretty much settled in, and the only way dennis was able to eventually get rid of them was by selling the house and moving on. somewhere during that timeline, one of the BB's record execs apparently listened to manson's song-stylings (at dennis' insistence) and was professionally unimpressed. charles was evidently flabbergasted / outraged. but like dennis, the record-exec made the equally-wise decision to sell his house and move the hell away. as i understand it, that was the very house manson came back to, where he initiated his murder spree.

and now i've creeped myself out and all. bah..
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Old 03-14-2015, 11:23 AM
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The record exec was Terry Melcher. He later co-wrote "Kokomo".
And the house was not the initial murder scene. It was the home that Roman Polanski leased after Melcher split, or so says Wikipedia. Now I've read that the Tate murders were over a drug deal that burned them. But the W says different.
Maybe Susam Atkins changed the story to protect somebody?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_M..._Manson_family
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Old 03-14-2015, 11:58 AM
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that's right... melcher. TY sleepy.


btw were you able to get that epub reader working? i'd be curious what you thought about the whole manson section, since he is little more than an infamous name to me.

were you in LA at that point? i guess you were a teenager around that time. i was doing what ppl my age were doing... watching scooby do and riding around on big wheels.

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Old 03-14-2015, 12:35 PM
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btw i got a copy of "smile sessions" yesterday and have listened to it a couple times.

what i had to go on up to this point were the previous albums, bootlegs, etc. i figured i knew what the album would sound like, right?

okay, in one sense i was right... i'm familiar with almost all of the songs, so few surprises there. what had eluded me however is just how much of a concept album smile sessions actually is. i think it is right in that impressive, interesting group that includes quadraphenia, the lamb lies down on broadway, the wall, and NOT xanadu (sorry livvy-baby, i still luvs you's).

anyway, i was also wrong. smile sessions is even better than i remembered / thought.

i think the thing to remember billy-bill is that pet sounds and smile were both related and yet fundamentally different (you know that classic relationship?)... i.e., one was the quintessential pop-rock advancement for the time period it occurred in. that's not chopped liver any way you look at it. korporal klinger came next, of course. (sorry i meant sgt pepper and the lonely hearts)

but the other beautiful thing in question was:

- a cultural legend and a famous standard-bearer about what can go wrong in the biz, very fast, very badly
- another great album
- astonishing peaks that no other wilson-related product has ever matched IMO
- a sonal firmament that hangs together just as much as the classic car / beach / girl songs ever did, and generally not as beloved and easily-appealing as the other stuff, but...... but...... a kind of statement by the artist-- "now that i know i can please you folks, i need to put more work in to my psyche and well-being... can you come along with me?"

i think the fans would have gone along, just as what happened with the beatles, prince, probably the stones, maybe led zep... etc. (damn brain-thing running out of juice, i guess)

anyway, i'm sitting under a cool leafy green tree at the moment... sipping on a beer with red pepper flakes tossed in. don't you wish you could join me?
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Old 03-14-2015, 01:58 PM
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You bet. LA was gripped in terror over it. It took several days for them to be apprehended. I hate that whole story, and reading about it this morning bummed me out.

And Holy Shit! Somebody from The Wrecking Crew stopped at my door a moment ago. Very Rare for them to let on around here, but posed as Una Seņora de La Biblia, hablando en espaņol, y no La Bamba .

I had no choice but to say, "No Espanol". That was not a case of stalking,
though they are indeed tracking. Say hi and hello.
I will be quiet now.
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Old 03-14-2015, 02:17 PM
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And oh yeah. About the Calibre reader and book, I've had some trouble with scrolling. I think it's a settings issue. But I haven't gotten too far into the book, and my past and present real life issues are just too close to the story to be fascinating.
If I catch a reference in this thread, I look it up.

I couldn't find the section about a contract with CBS. That is interesting to me since I've had several incidents involving CBS, Paramount and Viacom. And Desilu.
So if the Boys are connected to any of those, in spite of The Warners (or because of them), then that places things going on more in-house. It connects a few of the dots.

But, I remember the tv bio movie was on ABC. All the same. The Beatles Anthology was on ABC, but the 50th Anniversary was on CBS. I guess it goes to whoever pays the bucks.
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Old 03-14-2015, 02:36 PM
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on android i swipe my finger and it goes to the next page... assume that on PC there is a counterpart... maybe involving arrow keys / spacebar / etc.

bill...!?
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Old 03-14-2015, 05:10 PM
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Dammit, why can't y'all write in the middle of the night, like normal people? Yes, in this situation I am holding myself forward as a "normal person". Hoodle dang, but I had too much of something yesterday... the inside of my skull feels broken!
On the Calibre thang, it's got a built-in program that allows one to read books from the PC. Once you've opened the book, there's some purple arrow buttons about halfway down that make turning the pages a breeze. And grandpa would highly recommend increasing the font size, which you'll find right above the page-turning key.
Speaking of which, Bill's library to the rescue. After reading Helter Skelter a couple of times as a young'un, I thought I had pretty much covered the Manson territory. This book proved me wrong. The author shows that, much like Wichita's own BTK killer, Manson was less a criminal mastermind but a psychotic dipshit who really got lucky.
But it's the drums that do it, Nic! LOL, that's my favorite part of the song! Well, not quite. You're correct in assuming that the first part is a pretty average BB song about longing for a girl with a whole lotta orchestra layered over the top. But then there's that part near the end, where the strings hit that weird minor chord, the drums coming in like thunder from Olympus and, all of a sudden, we're listening to a very different song. All of a sudden, wimpy Beach Boy is left behind as the singer snarls that "You didn't think that I would sit around and let him take you?" It's almost a completely different song, yet flows so well with what came before it. And, sonically, it sounds much more angry than even the words would show it to be. It's the most amazingly melodic example of primal scream therapy that I've ever heard!
Trying to do a "what if?" scenario for Brian and the Boys is a maddening game. If Brian were a little bit more sane, would there have even been a "Smile"? Would he have been able to find a consistency in his genius, or was that period more like a creative atom bomb that he was destined to fail at replicating even if he had remained relatively sane? I think the only answer I could say with some degree of certainty is that the group's '70s output would have been better. There's no way it couldn't have been. There certainly is no way it could have been worse.
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Old 03-14-2015, 05:30 PM
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One last argument for Pet Sounds... or at least a way to explain why I think it may top Smile. Pet Sounds is timeless. And by that, I mean that, when you listen to it, it sounds like it could have been recorded last year. In many ways, I think Smile was a victim of its time period, much in the same way Corporal Klinger is (although Brian's inherent mastery makes Smile a more rewarding experience than John and Paul doing acid and hanging some poor violinist upside-down by his ankles or whatever). Or, to belabor the comparison, Sounds is The Beach Boys Abbey Road. AR leaves behind the more irritating examples of experimentation for experimentation's sake found on Klinger, and taken to a divisive extreme on the White Album. Abbey Road doesn't sound like four guys sittin' around and fucking the dog. It has a maturity and a certain timelessness that, were it to be recorded a year ago, it could almost easily have been a product of its time now as when it was recorded some 45 years ago. Meaning Pet Sounds is that rare achievement of music as Dorian Gray... never seems to age, never sounds dated. And, if you think about it, there aren't many records that are like that.
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Old 03-15-2015, 12:18 AM
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time standards... time standards... that's part of me whole devil-be-bitch, william!


so then GTFO of here with yer wisdom and yer logic, senor.


ah pardon me maties but saint patrick's is nigh and i'm starting to feel even more silly than usual... i am, i am.
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Old 03-15-2015, 12:55 AM
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LOL! You're using a Catholic saint's day to as an excuse to crap out of our salon? Shame on you! You make Voltaire cry!
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Old 03-15-2015, 04:38 AM
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I got no drink. I have Listerine!
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Old 03-15-2015, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
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You make Voltaire cry!
so... mission accomplished, muvvlefluffle.

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Old 03-15-2015, 12:32 PM
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Pardon me dense. What is Corporal Klinger? You mean M*A*S*H*?
I wouldn't think so, but still.
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Old 03-15-2015, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
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Pardon me dense. What is Corporal Klinger? You mean M*A*S*H*?
I wouldn't think so, but still.
That's what Nic renamed Sgt. Pepper. I find it fitting.
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:33 AM
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oh well, i finished the book. carlin really takes it to love at the end, albeit in a velvety-glove, damning-by-arched-eyebrow kind of way. but it's pretty clear he thinks mike is full of it. i'm with you on that one now, bill.

i noticed the author came up with the same point that i had made earlier-- if love and whoever else hadn't been so intolerant and full of themselves, brian probably would have made it through smile in 1967 without getting wrecked, and may well have continued further in that direction. we'll never know.

i think van dyke parks also deserves a lot of credit for those wonderful lyrics, too. love couldn't make head nor tail of them at the time and it made him belligerent. fast forward to modern times and he seems to own almost the exact same attitude-- the lyrics were 'too weird' and it was a 'fortunate thing that the plug got pulled on smile'... not to mention he seems completely oblivious to how much of a ruthless, litigious bully he became in the mid-60's and still is today, it seems like.

he completely missed and/or ignored the memo that "brian wilson IS the beach boys... the rest of us are just his messengers." --dennis in 1970

i also find it quite impressive that brian was able to work with so many other song-writers interchangeably. most often they did more of the lyrics and he wrote most of the music. but mike was one of his early collaborators, and almost certainly couldn't handle the fact that brian moved on artistically and in his partnerships. yet with the imperatives of murry and the nature of the family business, brian was also in no position to re-form the band as he did many years later, to glorious effect.

mike love clearly failed to grasp that brian was the far more talented musician. in fact, the book said that around the mid-60's brian was being all but heralded as the nation's top musician. professional musicians would apparently come in to work on a session, see this tall, baby-faced kid in charge... roll their eyes internally... and then get their mind blown by how inventive and ingenious the young dude was.

...

welp... not sure what there is left to say. this was the first book i read completely on tablet and it was quite fun for the most part. thanks for joining in the discussion, guys...!

so then... what's next?
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Old 03-16-2015, 03:12 AM
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btw i just randomly came across this article about andy summers' new documentary based on his memoir. he calls sting an 'egomaniac and not a team player... altho both things wound up helping at the same time.'

one thing that seems clear based on what happened with the instrumental "behind my camel," not to mention sting's solo work, is that the police's sound had a lot more summers in it than was obvious from the track credits.
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Old 03-16-2015, 03:38 AM
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This is just my take on it. Smile is about the organic process of creating tunes. The bits and pieces are like hearing the accidental harmonics on the morning breeze, or from the wind chimes in the window and turning those random bits into recordings.
It is the accidental process of conversion, but by a person with a musical ear.

Corporal Klinger is a mockumentary about bleeding in the sheep. It has a lot in common with the verboten Butcher cover, and how some people waste their entire life following the band. Other efforts with the same theme are "Tommy", "Sympathy for the Devil" (who owns you?), and The Kinks' "Rock and Roll Fantasy", and Lennon's "God".
"God" is very close to the concept of "Corporal Klinger", but cut to the quick as a single tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jknynk5vny8

Is Burt Bacharah alright? I mean, the early singles with Dionne?
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:06 AM
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Mike is quite the paradox. He really seems to have an above-average asshole quotient. It's one thing to be jealous when your musical partner leaves you in the dust. It's something completely different when you're putting the spurs to said former musical partner because he's not working fast enough to suit your own career goals. That's like breathtakingly bad behavior.
Man, I pretty much have forgotten what a paper-based book looks like. Except when I have to dust our "library" (the spare bedroom that gets the most crap thrown on the floor). I pretty much gave up on 'em once I got the Kindle and
A. Grandpa found he could make the font bigger
B. Grandpa found out his equally-ancient friend Usenet was shootin' books out like nobody's business.
Yeah, I read that Sting story as well. Turns out he's a self-absorbed asshole... who saw that coming? My dislike for Gordon goes deeper than that, though. I've always hated the rhyming scheme he'd use in most of his songs. You know that whole 'shake and cough/just like the/old man in/that book by Nabokov. It's stilted, it's forced and it looks like he wrote it when he was 14.
@arne. Love Burt Bacharach, really don't care for Dionne Warwick. I was working at a Musicland when "That's What Friends Are For" came out. Hey, look... I wrote those words without rolling into a fetal position and screaming! That's a first! i wonder if I could do that for "You Give Love a BaaaaaaAAAAUUUUGGHHHH! AUUUUGGGHHHH!
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
Corporal Klinger is a mockumentary about bleeding in the sheep. It has a lot in common with the verboten Butcher cover, and how some people waste their entire life following the band. Other efforts with the same theme are "Tommy", "Sympathy for the Devil" (who owns you?), and The Kinks' "Rock and Roll Fantasy", and Lennon's "God".
I would disagree on Sympathy. I think It's Only Rock'n'Roll comes closer to what you're talking about. I think I was about 16 when I actually listened to the lyrics of that one. "If I could stick a knife in my heart Suicide right on the stage would it be enough for your teenage lust? Would it help to ease your pain?" Because that's what those fans you're talking about want. Blood. Or, if you're AJ Weberman, you'll settle for Dylan's garbage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Weberman
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:23 AM
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No way man. "That's What Friends Are For" might as well be Mikey's theme song. Besides, that was a throwaway tune for charity, like "We are the World". I had some distant input about doing something like that. I deeply regret it now. There is a local joke about "doing it for charity", but as a pun for "Jerry taking it to the bank hisself", the local actor/singer who is officially dead and has been for over 25 years. It's a cult thing. "Jerry" is still cutting records tomorrow. He was on the GRAMMYS this year. Different Chaney get-up too.
Besides. The song. It sucks. Like "Ebony and Ivory". It sucks. It came out after the hazings started, and 9 years before Dionne shifted to hosting "The Psychic Friend's Network". A real telepathic kick-in-the-pants thanks to Howard Hughes' crappy weapons division and the abuses of ultrasonic frequencies stimulating phosphorus in the nervous system. Often simulcast from Hughes' RKO-owned K-RTH FM in the 70's.
Did you ever see her "Psychic" infomercials in the 90's? Maybe that was only local Hughes voodoo?

But I mean the early singles. "Walk On By", "Anyone Who Had a Heart", "Don't Make Me Over", or the later "What's New, Pussycat?" and "Raindrops...".
Yeah...

Last edited by sleepy; 03-16-2015 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:30 AM
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And yeah, I agree. "It's Only Rock and Roll" is close to that theme. But I referenced "Devil" due to the potential ownership of the spellbouind listener.
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:43 AM
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yea i meant to get enrolled in usenet a couple years ago, but dragged my heels and pretty much made do with the download sites. so what are you reading these days?

one thing that seems to go together with summers' comments is a big story i remember a couple years ago in which a maid (i think a latina immigrant) claims she was abused and underpaid by her boss trudy stiles... sting's wife. i forget if that was back in england or here in the states. anyway the wife also sounded like an imperious, callous egomaniac to match her husband, perhaps.

too bad for me, i guess. i really like the police's fabulous music and sting's unique vocals. oh well... it's another common story when it comes to those with talent. not really that surprising.
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:55 AM
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It was probably here. The history of The Police coming from England is a fabrication.
Sting's been around here.
And I forgot. I think that "Friends" song is likely a Carole Bayer Sager tune, with little or no Bacharah. He probably only did the arrangement. It sounds like hers. Like a Marilyn and Alan Bergman piece. La-la-boring.

As charity tunes go, I was happiest with "Do They Know It's Christmas?".
I had been ademant about offering an A-Song for charity back in '80-'81, not fluff.
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Old 03-17-2015, 11:36 PM
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Apparently Brian has been known to do what Jay Leno does. He goes to Bob's Big Boy on Car Night, Fridays. Just a reference here:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug...skine-20130831

Beach Boys in Burbank, early-mid 60's. From a page dedicated to my old high school (10th grade only. Then we got the hell out of there)
Also of note is that Bill Wyman was spending some kind of time in the local area. She wasn't in the U.K.:

http://bhsclass67.blogspot.com/2010/...n-burbank.html

A Newsweek article from 2012 about the following (YouTube) tune:

http://www.newsweek.com/beach-boys-crazy-summer-64955

Great! Great! Great! Brian and The Band! A completely new tune to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAmk-Wk2pNA





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