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Old 10-15-2012, 02:47 AM
Retro Jim Retro Jim is offline
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Default Williams 4 Aces EM pinball problems ! Please Help !!!

I have a Williams 4 aces . It turns on and powers up just fine .
Actually has 2 problems that I have found out right now .
First , The shooter ball is activated by a round button in the middle of the board that holds the glass in . The button doesn't work . I have tried everything and nothing . Now it will shoot the ball from the coil but not at the shooter button .

Second . It's a 2 player game . When I put in for 2 players , the light goes to the 2 player on the back glass but it will not change over to the 2nd player after the ball goes back to the shooter hole position .
I am assuming it's might have to do something due to the shooter ball button not working but don't know .

OK the real bad ! This is my first EM that I am working on and I am not got with understand electronics as of right now . I am in the learning stages

I am hoping someone can give some help to get this machine to switch to the 2nd player and get the button to work for the ball shooter .

Thanks !
Jim
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:26 AM
GSGregg GSGregg is offline
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Ah-HA!! Hello, Retro Jim! At last; someone who knows what this machine is. I periodically bump 'tables you'd like to see?'-type threads over at VPForums.org, hoping to eventually see it recreated. It was a load of fun, but forty years is a long time.

There are several pinball techs here at PN, but I'm sorry to say that I'm not one of them, so I can't help with your problem. Some qualified folk are bound to see this, however.

One VPF thread in which I/we discussed 4 Aces is 'Any "forgotten" tables you'd recommend?'
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?sh...=20#entry71491
From the IPDB pics, the playfield would seem to indicate scoring and therefore strategy, but there a few questions: Do the hanging targets drop to hold the ball during bonus collection, or are there magnets at work? And, what is the 'A' and 'B' targets' function?

Hope you've survived having your ear bent; welcome to PN!


Gregg
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:24 AM
Retro Jim Retro Jim is offline
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Gregg ,
Thanks for the reply . I do play the 4 ACES . I trip the coil by hand and the ball shoots out then I play . It's not a bad game but many haven't played the game due to the "open" play field . There are a lot better pins from that era but this one is very different and not that bad to play once you know how it works to get the score .
I hope to get it fixed someday and hopefully someone will chime in with some answers to the problems with the game .

The first pin I ever owned was back in 1975 . It's called Bow & Arrow by Bally . My best friend & I played the heck out of that pin . It was a great machine and I can't find anyone that has played it or even heard of that game before . It had pretty much everything you could want from a pin . I am trying to find another one that I can afford . It's a great pin if you ever get a chance to play one !
Jim

Last edited by Retro Jim; 10-15-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:48 PM
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A friend has a Bally "Hi Lo Ace" that I recently spent some time in, but he has the manual and schematic so the unsoldering and resoldering was harder than the diagnosis (lightly corroded fuse panel terminals interrupted the 6V to half of the machine)---although I 'R&R'ed the power transformer to check it out before the real cause occurred to me. Almost thirty years since I raised the glass of a pinball machine, and I'm a bit rusty.

When your backglass indicates Player 2, does Player 1 still play, or does the machine go to lunch until you tilt to get back to Player 1. (Never mind; I guess the relevant question is whether you have the literature to aid you in tracing what does what.)

I thought the wide body and open playfield were what 'made' the game, along with the upper flippers to relay the ball to the top targets if and when it got past the posts on the free-wheeling disc; the extra width sure came in handy!

A virtual version of 4 Aces would be a nice companion to Hi Lo Ace, Kings and Queens, and Midway Flying Turns.


GSG
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:27 PM
Retro Jim Retro Jim is offline
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I can't get the player "1" to switch to the player "2" when I loose the ball in play and it goes back into the ball shooter slot .
Everything seems to work OK as for the play field and scoring .

I also can't get the ball shooter button to work either .
I have 2 other Bingo machines I want to get working as well .

The 4 aces is similar to the Kings & Queens .

Now please keep in mind that I am very new at repairing pins and doing any kind of electric work . I can soldier OK but that's about it . I have some DVDs on EM repairs . I have the tools to shop the pins as well .
Now I just need to learn how to use the voltage tester I have and be able to read the schematics .
I have the schematics and books to all my pins !

Jim
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Old 03-09-2013, 01:20 AM
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Hey, Retro Jim! You've had about five months to sneak up on it, so how's your 4 Aces coming along? Also, can you describe the functions of targets A and B?

GSG
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:15 PM
Retro Jim Retro Jim is offline
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GSGregg ,
No I haven't figured out the problem yet . I did work on it a few more time with about 4 hours in it and haven't done anything with it since . It's sitting in my dining room that has become my game room ! It's sitting next to my Lazer Ball pinball that does get played a lot .
Since then I have bought 2 Bingo machines that are in my garage right now ready to be shopped . I have been wanting a Bingo machine for a very long time . I played them a lot back in the 1970's and got very good at with them and won a lot at about 5 different places I played them in . I wouldn't stay at the one place I would win a lot of money at so I wouldn't get barred from the place . So i would jump around to different places .
Anyway I am thinking about selling it . Now I do play it now and then but have to shoot the ball by tripping the ball shooter at the coil then just play . I have the schematics for the machine and it's got all new rubber buy that was as far as I have gotten right now .
I do a lot of hunting , fishing and do a lot of card / turkey shoots . I also build Ford engines when I get a side job and repair old Fords . So I have too many things I like to do and not enough time to do them all but I do try very hard !
Now as for "A" & "B" targets you get points of course and it moves the light on the cards across the top but haven't got a total grasp on the things it really is used for beside scores . I have looked on the internet and it's hard tp find any really good information about the machine and the way the game is played and the whole trick behind the game as to what combination of targets to hit to get certain things .
OK I just pulled the Instructions booklet out and I found out what the A & B round targets do . It's sort of long to post here but when they are lit , hit them to get a SPECIAL . They also do other things . When I bought the machine the last owner gave me the instruction booklet with the schematics . He bought them from Marco .

Jim

Jim
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:15 AM
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Yes. I too have played Bally Bow and Arrow.
There is a Bow and Arrow just up the street at Cadillac Jack's Cafe,
but darn it, Cadillac Jack's is now a movie set rental, closed to the public.

If you watch the t.v. show "Dexter", you might see it in the background.
I often walk past the place, sometimes catching movie shoots, but on those days the windows are blocked.
On days when the place is vacant, the windows are clear and I see it sitting there, and I start to think about the times...and whether the machine itself is still operational.
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Old 03-10-2013, 02:58 PM
Retro Jim Retro Jim is offline
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That was actually my first pin I ever owned and they seem to be very hard to find now . I would like to get another one someday but I am getting more back into the bingo machines since I played them the most when I was in my teen years . Then drag racing took over but still played the bingo machines after playing pool . That was where the most bingo machines were back then . The pool halls I went to would have a wall with nothing but bingo machines to play . Most of them had from about 6 or to 10 but one place that had 2 walls full of them ! There was about 20+ of them at that pool hall . They did have just about everyone you could think of and I was lucky and played just about all of them but a few made back then .
I want to get an OK machine next in a couple years and hopefully I can find a Golden Gate machine someday as well . Those were my 2 favorites to play and won the most money off of .

Jim
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:19 AM
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you mean this bow and arrow?
that is an oldie and the shot is off of the IPDB
nice to see the older EM's are still around
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:10 PM
Retro Jim Retro Jim is offline
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That's it ! The shoot to the left where you see all the inlays of lights , well every time you could shoot the ball up the left and hit the target at the top it would light the one at the bottom . As you kept sending the ball up and hitting the target the lights would keep going one at a time until they were all lit then you would get a special . Now I think I am 99.9% sure but I had mine back in the mid 1970's so things could be a little off ! LOL ! Anyway you got the special and then when you hit the target up there again you got an extra game . I think that was also how you got an extra ball too . All I can remember was when my best friend and I played the game that was where you wanted to keep sending the ball to get the special and the best scores .
We would play that all night long ! Me first wife and I lived in an apartment back then so when it got to around 10 or 11 pl I remember there was a switch that you could turn the bells off with when you opened the coin door . That way we could keep playing but you still could hear all the bumpers and targets banging when we hit them . We really didn't care about the noise because we were just having lots of fun !
Anyway that was my first EM pin and have always wanted another one . I found one about 2 years ago but the guy wanted an arm and a leg for the pin and it needed work .
The back glass was really nice looking and colorful from what I can remember from back in the 70's . The reason I bought the "Bow and Arrow" was because my best friend and I did a lot of archery shooting and hunting back then . So it just fit in with the things I loved to do back then .
I was a good playing pin for the time it was made . It had lots of play field action and plenty of targets and things to shoot for to get the extra ball , special and some decent high scores with . If you ever get a chance to play one , you won't be disappointed at all . I think Bally made that in the late 60's but not 100% sure . If you look it up on Google you can get some good pictures of the machine . There is more than likely a You Tube of one playing too . If you happen to find one on You Tube let me know . I haven't seen one play since the mid 1970's !

Jim
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:52 AM
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calling up Bow and Arrow on youtube brings up a plethora
of clips on playing it here's but one of them:
Playing our Bow and Arrow - YouTube
there's literally hundreds of clips showing that particular pin
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:03 PM
Retro Jim Retro Jim is offline
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Glad to see someone else that has one and enjoys playing it .
OK the trick , if you don't know yet , is to catch the ball with the right flipper and hold the flipper in the up position . Then let off and when the ball get to about 1/2" from the end of the flipper , that is about the position that will shoot the ball up the ally way so you can hit the target at the top . Then the ball will come right back down and you can keep catching the ball with the flipper . It takes lots of practice but that is how you get all the goodies if I remember correctly but that been back in 1975 !
I never had any problems with the bells not working or turning off by their self .
I saw some had that posted under your you tube of your Bow and Arrow. If yours does that check the switch that turns them off . That might be loose and from playing it just slides to the off position .
Anyway I am jealous because you have the one pin I really did love to play and my very first pin I ever bought ! I hope you get many years of enjoyment from the machine or at least as much fun as I had with mine !

Jim
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:01 AM
GSGregg GSGregg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Jim View Post
The first pin I ever owned was back in 1975. It's called Bow & Arrow by Bally. It was a great machine and I can't find anyone that has played it or even heard of that game before.
It's not surprising that Bow and Arrow is hard to find; IPDB estimates that only seventeen were produced. However, have you checked out Visual Pinball? (At this point, I should say that I'm not unmindful of the fact that you have a lot of activities/hobbies, and may not get your pinball 'fix' sitting at a computer---or even want to. But I need the typing practice.....)

There are three versions of B&A (four, if you count the fullscreen ((cabinet version)) of JPSalas' VP9 table as a separate version) available:

1) Ash's January 2002 VP table with 5-digit score reels---values for the top saucer and center target change randomly at one-second intervals (sometimes resting for an additional second) and Bonus counts down at 600ms intervals. If a player reaches 100,000 points, a 'High Score' window on the backglass includes the sixth digit.
This table is avilable for download at irpinball.org.


2) The same table with VPinMAME and 6-digit LED score displays added by Gaston plus a dip-switch menu (for adjusting replay scores, for instance) added by Inkochnito. Saucer / target values move left-to-right, then repeat, at 260ms intervals, and Bonus counts down at 200ms intervals. This table is available at VPForums.org, and was uploaded there in March 2009.

3) And, the above mentioned VP9 table by JPSalas. Available at both VPF-dot-oh and here at PN, released January 2010.

Lots of people have found virtual pinball a welcome substitute for the real thing---especially if those real things are practically nonexistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Jim View Post
It's (4 Aces) sitting in my dining room that has become my game room. Anyway I am thinking about selling it.
Ah, yes.....a dining room is nothing if it can't be repurposed; I have a cylinder head from my 401 Buick on the floor of my d.r. (with the other head, carb, air cleaner, and one exh manifold in the kitchen! (Long story, but I've turned the corner! )
Too bad you might be parting with a unique toy, but as I have barely made enough room in my house for just my computer, I have to exclude myself from your list of potential buyers. Darn!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Jim View Post
I do a lot of hunting , fishing and a lot of card / turkey shoots . I also build Ford engines when I get a side job and repair old Fords.
So, what's your pleasure; flathead? Y-block? FE? or whatever they're calling the new Modular stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Jim View Post
Now as for "A" & "B" targets.....
OK I just pulled the Instructions booklet out and I found out what the A & B round targets do. It's sort of long to post here but when they are lit, hit them to get a SPECIAL. They also do other things. When I bought the machine the last owner gave me the instruction booklet with the schematics. He bought them from Marco.
Are these vendors selling reprints? or just original documents; it'd be nice to look at a schematic for some long-distance diagnosis.

Hey, faralos!

What's your take on R.J.'s Launch button / Next Player problem? Any chance that a common source (relay or switch) is failing to pass power, with the first-player reels working only because that source passes power in its de-energized / default position?

(I realize that the above may be clumsily worded, but the only schematic to which I have access is for Bally's 'Hi-Lo-Ace', which is a one-player game with a conventional plunger and therefore of no help.)

Retro Jim; Almost forgot to mention :

The target you referred to at the top left of Bow and Arrow is actually a saucer or kicker hole that holds the ball until the Bonus is counted off (don't worry---as you know, the value is retained / held for the next shot to the saucer...and the next...etc....until the ball is lost, at which time the value resets to zero). Bonus is built three ways (sounds like a Wonder Bread commercial.....):

1) The round red target about 3/4-way up the right side;

2) Cycling either spinner ten spins, which isn't necessarily a 'gimme', as the spinner can come to rest in a non-vertical position and allow the ball to pass under it next time without making contact; and my favorite.....

3) Either inlane. Let a falling ball bounce off a raised flipper and up the inlane, and the ball will stop, reverse direction and fall through for a second hit; a few of those, and it's time to hit the saucer!

Maximum bonus is only ten (again---as you know), but can you imagine the scores if it went to thirty-nine or more, as some other tables do? Or multiplied 5X or more, instead of only 2X?

DANG! This thing got long! I guess that's enough typing practice. Good night;

Gregg

Last edited by GSGregg; 03-15-2013 at 04:06 AM.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:50 AM
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williams 4 aces a good troubleshooting technique i use is to use alligator clip jumper wires. connect one lead to the 24 volt solenoid fuse yellow wire and the other to the non black wire of the ball shooter coil. you may need to connect 2 or more jumpers together to get desired lenght. if the coil fires then the coil is good . if not the coil maybee open , have bad wire connection. if the windings are shorted it would burn out the fuse. if the coil does fire using your schematic find the ball shooter coil and wiring wire colors and backtrack wiring to other parts of that circuit, using the jumper wire to power the coil tracking down where the problem is. use this method on 24v solenoid coils only, not for 120v bank reset coils or series relay coils. getting the ball shooter working may or maynot have something to do with the 2nd player carry over. when the ball drains does the machine count off its bonus if it has bonus feature, does it advance to the next ball , or does the ball just sit there?
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Old 10-06-2017, 01:40 PM
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Default 4 Aces Parts

I have parts for a 4 Aces Machine. No Glass. all internal mechanical.
email me at roccomannoart@gmail.com
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