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  #31  
Old 03-08-2011, 01:10 PM
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...Honestly, calling everyone trolls is nonsense...
You missed the whole point of the post, Will, but that's okay. I didn't call anyone a troll.

So is adding the logo to your sig. I've never stopped anyone from doing that.
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:19 PM
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You missed the whole point of the post, Will, but that's okay. I didn't call anyone a troll.

So is adding the logo to your sig. I've never stopped anyone from doing that.
Paul;

I realize Shocky has a BIG mouth. BUT, PacDude was the same way. I also realize that only one person (Shockman) seems to have a vendetta against all this so I can understand the majority of folks want the nudge to be the way it is. All folks have to do is add a few lines of script to fix this.

I'm not trying to be difficult; I just find this topic (over here) is way overboard. I also appreciate the help you have given me. Thanks! I also appreciate that I can add the logo to my sig. That's also appreciated.

Don't know what else to say. Just thanks for your honest information and keeping us updated on the topic. Of course there are the few of us that were used to the "old" nudge but you've stated this can be fixed using the StartShake statement. Good enough for me as long as it works.

Thanks Noah.

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  #33  
Old 03-08-2011, 01:24 PM
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Any time, dude.

It's my sincerest hope that we can have both nudge effects user definable. This way you can go only 'shake', only 'force', or anything in between.

The simplest solution to trying to make everyone happy.
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  #34  
Old 03-08-2011, 02:08 PM
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You missed the point of that old thread as well Paul. I think it was obvious that it was sarcasm.

It might work, I'm not exactly sure, separating shake and force. In VP8 though it was tied together in a logical way. I don't know why you would think that having them made to be set in illogical ways would make it any better, and you have not explained it that I have caught. You just say it is all that is needed.

I understand what I want. And I understand what is needed. If just shake alone would move the table and not the ball, then you are absolutely right. I could not know, because we would have to have both shake and force working, as well as counter force to know. I really don't care if the these things are tied together in a logical way or not, as long as they all can be set by the user. I would hope of course that the default was logical.

Cabinet users would not want the ball to move, but the table to, and I don't know if you can add what would be very small amounts of recoil difference to the nudge or not. But keyboard users might prefer it either way. They might prefer the table to move, or they may prefer the ball to move, and perhaps a little of both. The table moving would be the ball moving too, just at a point of view where the pov is set to the ball, so if you could focus on only the ball it would appear not to move.

Regardless if the separation would work or not, when someone hits the nudge button and the ball starts rolling, and hits the nudge button again and the ball rolls faster, including from the bottom of the table to the top, what is obvious is not that separation is needed but, but that the counter force is needed. Only if you would want some unrealistic reaction in ball movement, can I see a need for separation though. Separation is an idea, and I'm not saying it is a bad idea. Counterforce needed on the other hand is an axiom. If someone wanted ball movement without table movement, they have it, with startshake not being used. If someone wanted table movement without ball movement, then they need something like VP<9 has, and would have it with startshake set to on if the counterforce was put back. Don't you understand that we would already have it both ways without separation if the recoil was put back? What would you suppose this separation flag be called? startshake2? Separation may be nice as a feature, but it is not what I want, like you keep saying it is. Why would I want to have to make a reaction equal and opposite to a reaction? I would expect a very simple algorithm to do that automatically. VP2 did this. Probably VP1 as well.
And what if someone wanted the ball only to move? Imagine that, wait, you don't have to, your version does that by design. Counterforce would be needed then and separation of what we have wouldn't do shit.

It would probably be easier to understand if I knew how VP in relation to the cabinet hardware behaved. Shake is not used, and ball movement is reversed, so the only thing needed is to sync the ball movement to the actual real table movement, in such a way that the ball is at least pretty much staying on the same spot on the table. Is this correct? Does it work well? If so that is pretty much what VP has always did for the keyboard. Always, until VP9. I think UC's biggest mistake was not modifying the key code to do their deed, but leaving any part of keyboard interaction at all. Then just one single sub-routine would now need to be written to do nudging for the keyboard. Something that any of us would be able to do.

Last edited by Shockman; 03-08-2011 at 03:11 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-08-2011, 06:46 PM
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You missed the point of that old thread as well Paul. I think it was obvious that it was sarcasm.
Oh, I didn't miss anything ...

You were banned, blaming everyone else, and even complaining about people 'crying about something that happened at another site,' which is so pot meet kettle ... all too familiar, Phil, and very ironic.

But that aside ...

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If just shake alone would move the table and not the ball, then you are absolutely right.
That is EXACTLY what I've been saying all along!

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Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
Cabinet users would not want the ball to move, but the table to
Incorrect. Cab users want no shake, just ball movement. It makes no sense to have two playfield movements. The cab moves already, so just the force need be applied.

So, by making shake and force two different, definable aspects of nudge, both are possible on the same platform! It's the easiest way to implement it, and offers a lot of flexibility for authors to create nudging effects as they see fit.

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Regardless if the separation would work or not, when someone hits the nudge button and the ball starts rolling, and hits the nudge button again and the ball rolls faster, including from the bottom of the table to the top, what is obvious is not that separation is needed but, but that the counter force is needed.
Here's where inverting is part of the solution. When you nudge a table up, the ball would actually move into objects below it. Though there currently is too much force applied, having it nudge in the wrong direction only makes matters worse.


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Only if you would want some unrealistic reaction in ball movement, can I see a need for separation though.
Keyboard users want shake, cab users want force, so it's the perfect solution. I personally would want a little force with my shake on desktop tables, with counter-force applied, of course.

So, I've been saying all of this ALL ALONG, and I'm tired of repeating myself.

If you could have just gotten past the conspiracy theories, blaming former devs, imagined slights, your constant negativity toward the project, and your nagging sensationalism, you may have seen what I've been saying all along much sooner.
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  #36  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:17 PM
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"If you could have just gotten past the conspiracy theories, blaming former devs, imagined slights, your constant negativity toward the project, and your nagging sensationalism, you may have seen what I've been saying all along much sooner."

Those thing are unrelated to my still seeing no explanation of why, or what good merely separating these two elements would do, but only a statement that it's needed. Counterforce is needed and separating it into a million parts is not going to give that. Are you saying that counterforce is part of shake, in that the table returns to position, and the ball acts accordingly correctly, and with the cabinet implementation that it does?

I can't test hardware I don't have. I can only analyze keyboard function, which not having start shake is not a problem, having the numbers reversed is not a problem. Both things that ideally it would. Stopshake should be part of your hardware code. Startshake should be there. Surly you have code that sets up those devices, that you can put stop shake into. Directions should be set up as your hardware requires of course, but adding a minus to the keyboard directions in the default table script at least should have happened day one. Both of these thing should have happened day one. Because these things are so simple that even I could do it, and it would make what little bit of keyboard nudging you do have work correctly with no effect to the hardware.

I don't have conspiracy theories, I have a inherent desire for courtesy towards the virtual pinball community as a whole, which these very simple changes mentioned above that could be done before the night is out would be.

I don't blame the former devs for making their build of VP (UCVP) work with their hardware. It was their job and to not do it would be pointless. To preserve keyboard control for some things would be pointless as well. I blame the current devs for some things though.

Paul, you used the name VPF to inherit the VPF community. If you don't feel any responsibility to it as a whole, you should spend the rest of the day changing the name. It is not too late to do that. I have builds of Visual Pinball that have startshake working and directions correct for keyboard users and no straight left or right either, as well as counterforce as good as it can possibly be scripted, that all has no possible way of effecting your hardware function. It's just that the scripting solution, while working needs timers that are not ideal. If I can do it then destruk or any one of the others can do it. It's simple.

You could have a version that works infinity better for keyboard without any possibly of effecting hardware one iota before tomorrow is here, if you wanted it.

Constant negativity? Constant is hardly the word. And negativity? Is suggestions about bugs that need to be fixed really negative in your opinion? In mine it is positive feedback. Keyboard nudging it different, but it's great guys. Is this positive? does something have to be false to be positive, or does it need to go un-mentioned to be positive. There is absolutely nothing negative about pointing out things that are wrong that would be an easy fix. I also requested that which you call layback, and ball size, and Alpha .png.And other than bug fixes that's about all that was ever on my list. These things too were all negative, weren't they? Good grief Paul. Why do you have to get rid of those that conflict with you? You can gain so much more from such people in a week than you can ditto heads in a lifetime.

nagging sensationalism? You mean a personality that irks you, don't you? We all deal with all types of personalities, unless of course we have the power to ban them. I have seen each of you with similar reactions to one thing or another, and you'll can be at least as nasty. I don't lie though, and that is a rare trait amongst those I have interacted with the most though. We have all cut you slack. With the name VPF which many thought was lame, with your paranoia about simple keyboard fixes destroying your hardware function, and we have weighed and measured, and you have come out on top, as everyone, but the evil should.

Last edited by Shockman; 03-09-2011 at 12:37 AM.
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  #37  
Old 03-09-2011, 12:33 AM
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I have seen the same code, (well I have not seen the code because I can't even download new builds of VP from there. I have to wait for it to show up here or get the source, which the latest version I have yet to get to make) so function then in the form of script for keyboard feedback show up at VPF a couple of times and that is not the first stuff. That is just not right. I have always found solutions, if solutions were possible, even if they were believed impossible, and I think that is much more important than any personality could be. I could imagine actions, or even extreme personalities like bigotry, or virus spreading people, or site hackers that would have need to be rid of, but I am none of that.

I can not even try out any of these new tables like the Flintstones, and Roadshow because I can not finds links off site (VPF site) anymore. Not even at JP's own page because download links all lead to VPF. Not a conspiracy theory, a fact.

You should at least have the courtesy to allow an oldtimer a read only account long enough to collect some things to try out.
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  #38  
Old 03-09-2011, 02:51 AM
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Either way, VP 8 nudging is a thing of the past, so what Noah has proposed about shake and force both being coded individually seems like a fairly decent compromise. I've begun to toy with the nudge force numbers, and in the game I'm working on now, which uses roughly half the force I usually have, I like the results. We all pride ourselves on figuring out workarounds, so rather than doing nothing but complain, I've decided to find a solution that works for my tables. And odd as it may seem, I prefer force alone.
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  #39  
Old 03-09-2011, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
...Counterforce is needed and separating it into a million parts is not going to give that. Are you saying that counterforce is part of shake, in that the table returns to position, and the ball acts accordingly correctly, and with the cabinet implementation that it does?
Implementing counter-force has always been part of my suggestion, Phil.

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I can't test hardware I don't have. I can only analyze keyboard function, which not having start shake is not a problem, having the numbers reversed is not a problem. Both things that ideally it would. Stopshake should be part of your hardware code. Startshake should be there. Surly you have code that sets up those devices, that you can put stop shake into. Directions should be set up as your hardware requires of course, but adding a minus to the keyboard directions in the default table script at least should have happened day one. Both of these thing should have happened day one. Because these things are so simple that even I could do it, and it would make what little bit of keyboard nudging you do have work correctly with no effect to the hardware.
Separating them into definable characteristics would do away with StartShake/StopShake.

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I don't have conspiracy theories, I have a inherent desire for courtesy towards the virtual pinball community as a whole, which these very simple changes mentioned above that could be done before the night is out would be.
Admins and Moderators are a big part of the community, Phil. Where does your inherent desire go when dealing with them?

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I don't blame the former devs for making their build of VP (UCVP) work with their hardware. It was their job and to not do it would be pointless. To preserve keyboard control for some things would be pointless as well. I blame the current devs for some things though.
Does the keyboard not work at all? Seeing as how I know it does, then fixing the ball/table behavior is what needs to be focused upon.

Blaming the current devs for anything is quite disrespectful. You don't even know the current devs or how hard they work on what they're doing.

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Paul, you used the name VPF to inherit the VPF community. If you don't feel any responsibility to it as a whole, you should spend the rest of the day changing the name. It is not too late to do that.
You have no clue ... I'll just let the site speak for itself.

Just be aware that I've been FAR from an 'absentee landlord,' and the community is growing, not dying a slow, agonizing death as it had been said to be in the past.

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Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
I have builds of Visual Pinball that have startshake working and directions correct for keyboard users and no straight left or right either, as well as counterforce as good as it can possibly be scripted, that all has no possible way of effecting your hardware function. It's just that the scripting solution, while working needs timers that are not ideal. If I can do it then destruk or any one of the others can do it. It's simple.
I don't even know what you're talking about on this one. The directions are correct, and again, separating them into definable characteristics would do away with any need for StartShake/StopShake.

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Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
You could have a version that works infinity better for keyboard without any possibly of effecting hardware one iota before tomorrow is here, if you wanted it.
You think it's that easy, it's not. If it were, you'd have already done it, no?

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Constant negativity? Constant is hardly the word. And negativity? Is suggestions about bugs that need to be fixed really negative in your opinion? In mine it is positive feedback. Keyboard nudging it different, but it's great guys. Is this positive? does something have to be false to be positive, or does it need to go un-mentioned to be positive. There is absolutely nothing negative about pointing out things that are wrong that would be an easy fix. I also requested that which you call layback, and ball size, and Alpha .png.And other than bug fixes that's about all that was ever on my list. These things too were all negative, weren't they? Good grief Paul. Why do you have to get rid of those that conflict with you? You can gain so much more from such people in a week than you can ditto heads in a lifetime.
You don't suggest, you insist. You don't report bugs, you complain. If you had it your way, everything would be done your way. When it's not, you're relentless, and yes, annoying as hell. You take the fun out of it. You were making me not want to visit my own site, and taking up so much of my time with your sensationalistic accusations that I could get nothing of my own accomplished. When it got to that point, you had to go, Phil.

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nagging sensationalism? You mean a personality that irks you, don't you? We all deal with all types of personalities, unless of course we have the power to ban them. I have seen each of you with similar reactions to one thing or another, and you'll can be at least as nasty. I don't lie though, and that is a rare trait amongst those I have interacted with the most though. We have all cut you slack. With the name VPF which many thought was lame, with your paranoia about simple keyboard fixes destroying your hardware function, and we have weighed and measured, and you have come out on top, as everyone, but the evil should.
No paranoia here, just respect for a company's hardware and all of those that have purchased it.
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I have seen the same code, (well I have not seen the code because I can't even download new builds of VP from there. I have to wait for it to show up here or get the source, which the latest version I have yet to get to make) so function then in the form of script for keyboard feedback show up at VPF a couple of times and that is not the first stuff. That is just not right. I have always found solutions, if solutions were possible, even if they were believed impossible, and I think that is much more important than any personality could be. I could imagine actions, or even extreme personalities like bigotry, or virus spreading people, or site hackers that would have need to be rid of, but I am none of that.

I can not even try out any of these new tables like the Flintstones, and Roadshow because I can not finds links off site (VPF site) anymore. Not even at JP's own page because download links all lead to VPF. Not a conspiracy theory, a fact.

You should at least have the courtesy to allow an oldtimer a read only account long enough to collect some things to try out.
Dude, over 100 emails in what, a week? Skyping with you, calling you on the phone, and giving you three chances isn't courtesy? Really?

You should have thought about all that when you were insulting me every hour, on the hour, for days.


So, this has taken up enough of my valuable time, and I always feel like I'm intruding when I post like this over here, so I'll be off.

My apologies to Jon and staff.

Have a nice day.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:42 AM
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Noah, you should never feel that you're intruding here.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:02 AM
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Shockman should open his own forum.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:06 AM
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Shockman should open his own forum.
We tried that once here.

Still all said, I'm still thinking a separate shake vs nudge codec is not the solution, as I've said over there, the nudge I feel needs another parameter called friction to address both the VP9 wildly exaggerated ball movement and allow for no movement at all in a desktop scenario. I just feel it would be a more elegant solution with greater possibilities and flexibility.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:11 PM
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"Does the keyboard not work at all? Seeing as how I know it does, then fixing the ball/table behavior is what needs to be focused upon."
For nudging? Are you serious? This is exactly the kind of comments that have me wondering if you really give a fuck, or understand .

"You should have thought about all that when you were insulting me every hour, on the hour, for days."
When I was banned for something I didn't even do, but I understand why you would want leave that out.

Separating is definitely no solution, as all the other fixes will still have to be done, and with separation, re-coded entirely differently. I don't know about friction though, it just does not sound right.

The way I see it, the counterforce that VP users have always enjoyed until this current dev cycle is needed, because the is what nudging is. What we have is driving. Friction nor separation is going to produce that. If it just had what it needed, then discussion would make sense as to where it can go from there. Separation and anything else is pointless until nudging is not the same and moving the ball along.

Last edited by Shockman; 03-09-2011 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:34 PM
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Yeah friction is not really the right terminology and jolt is a more correct term, referring to the amount the ball moves and changes trajectory upon a nudge.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Paul
That totally wipes out any chance to have both shake and nudge, in varying portions, to have a really realistic nudge!

It seems like you guys just aren't getting it ...
Not getting your hardware? No we are not.

Getting that a separate shake will have to still have force applied or the table is going to move a well into the ball but not bat it. Getting that setting the nudge amount always was the way of changing the "varying portions", that it seems we alone are getting.

This makes no sense at all. You want to totally screw up nudging for only keyboard users. VP nudges the ball, or at least it did before you got a hold of it. WTF do you think nudging is is not a "shake". If it were two different things then VP would have already had it, and you would be beating the drum to take one away from us. People that went to all the trouble to make their tables work, in VP9 and don't have nudging, but some surreal driving mechanism are not going to want a solution mean they are still not going to work. Nudging is the term in real pinball, and it is a shake. Nudging is the term in VP, besides yours, and involves shaking. This only fucking worked because they are tied together. A shake without a nudge means the ball and the table are moved the same, from our perspective, the ball not move at all by the table's perspective, but either way would not account for ball movement.

You have to understand, because this is not a real physical world, that no physic simulation in a matter of implementing real physics, not in the digital world, perhaps with the cabinets to a more degree. However, You say cabinets use force and not shake, and you assume we, because you have said a dozen times "That is exactly what you want", but it isn't. To nudge a pinball anyway you go about it, is to use force. Shaking without force? come on. Shaking with force if you set the force too (separate)? come on. You have proven by going on this nonsensical "change nudging to shake for keyboard users, it's what they want" kick that shake is not what we want if no force is tied to it. You even have me saying that now when in fact, the fact is that it has been always shake being tied to the force, because when nudging, force is king, not the motion.

You have to learn that nudging has more than a motion element, and you should already know that with cabinets that have that motion. How about taking force out of VP? You have the shake, and a real world version of the motion. You have made it real. Wait, you still need the force settings to make it work, don't you? Hell, just moving the table under the ball involves force, or the ball is not going to move (in relation to the table surface, not space), nor is it going anywhere if a wall slaps up against it.

Nudging is going to have a force on the table that is not going to have much to any noticeable degree on the ball due to the lack of friction due to the one mass being vastly more insignificant to the other. If you want to weigh a ball, and weigh a table, then subtract table weight from the ball weight, believe me, you are going to come up with a very small number. a negative number that will let you know the number of zeros to put to the right of a decimal to determine the actual amount of driving the nudging should do, and in my opinion, the sum of exactly how much better VP9 nudging is than VP<9 nudging is (a very large negative number).

I think someone that says there is significant delineation of the ball as a result of the nudge, VP9 nudging is better in any way (keyboard of course), action and reaction should not have a logical tie, or suggest reversing numbers, is in no position to make suggestions as to how a group they have no understanding of and seemingly no use for, should have these physics implemented. Work on getting your analog deadzone perfected, and leave the digital nudging to someone that cares about digital nudging. Please.

Shake and force have got to be tied together, there is absolutely no option there. If having visible table movement, that remember, is what we want, as you let us know. You are right, but we really have no wants here that matter. We have needs, just as your cabinets do.

Last edited by Shockman; 03-10-2011 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:03 PM
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Customizable shake, customizable jolt ... you can have the nudge do whatever the hell you want, and that's not good enough?

VP8 applies ZERO jolt to the ball, it simply moves the table, so by setting the jolt to ZERO, you'll get the same result.

So, apparently, you just don't get it, and you never will, so I'm done with this.
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Old 03-10-2011, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah Fentz View Post
Customizable shake, customizable jolt ... you can have the nudge do whatever the hell you want, and that's not good enough?

VP8 applies ZERO jolt to the ball, it simply moves the table, so by setting the jolt to ZERO, you'll get the same result.

So, apparently, you just don't get it, and you never will, so I'm done with this.
Is this in VP9.1.2?

Is it being worked on by someone who is a real person?

I don't want to get excited if we are just pissing in the wind here.



The VP9 nudge totally sucks, I play around with it for amusement, but I haven't played a table yet where it was of any use. I would say it's about as worthless as having no nudge.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:45 PM
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VP8, pro pinball, real pinball, everything has 'jolt'. You must be confused because Jolt does have a table movement tied to it. You must be confused because it has a realistic recoil. You must be confused because it has the counter force. Counter force is what your "better" VP9 does not have. You must be confused because you said the ball should delineate from it path. You must be confused because a balls weight is insignificant compared to the tables mass, to expect it to be driven by jolting.

VP9 nudging does not in the first way simulate a pinball sitting on a pinball machine, So no, I don't get it, Paul, and I never will. Customizable shake, customizable jolt. You said what we want is shake. Separation and adjustable shake and Jolt, is not even the same subject. You said what we needed was shake. No you said what we wanted is shake too.

A 4 year old could understand what I am saying on the other hand, and everyone does get it. I knew you would too. Customizable shake, customizable jolt. That's a big step forward from all we want is shake separate from jolt. What I and others want is customizable jolt and shake, there is no reason to type customizable after both. There is also no reason in my opinion to not have one tied to the other. Who want's to figure how much they need the table to move and program that to match a number they pick for the force of the nudge in the computer age? Since reaction is always an equal and opposite to an action, then I have a radical idea you could, borrow from real life, other pinball sims, including VP, for VP9. How about we let the computer figure that out for us. Why don't we have to adjust both the force of a pop bumper and the force of the ball's reaction to it? Because they are one and the same. Actually they are two parts of a whole. Action/Equal and opposite reaction. I did not just make that up. It is a part of VP, and everything else. Let's have a table that is nudged half way across the room and make people have to find a useful nudge power to go along with that. Maybe have the wall that slams into a ball at 15 mph move the ball a quarter of an inch before it rolls down the drain, or not, if we can get it right by some amount of effort we might, will surly get it to act better than that! Instead, why not do what everyone else does and use the damn computer for calculations. That's my thought, that's what I would want, if you are interested in logical suggestions.

Your suggestion is not bad Paul, but without a logical tie in, it's missing the boat. I hope to God that the lack of nudging gets improved. If we HAVE to calculate a shake to go with our force, then some of us can do that. I sure hope we are not called upon to do it though, not when we all have computers that can, as they always (until now these days) done that kind of crap for us. VP9's nudging set VP's nudging back to before the release of VP. Things should be getting better, not worse. Without keyboard nudging, as far as I'm concerned, your team can take out keyboard plunging and keyboard flippers and it would no longer matter. Of course if they could be set separate, but defaulted to a logical tie into each other, the that would be good. There is no getting around the fact though that if you separate, it would still be crap. It has got to have counterforce, or it will remain crap. Good lord man.

These physics don't you know are similar to many other things like tennis rackets/balls, ping pong, golf club/ball, on and on. It would be important for a simulation of anything to keep any action/reaction tied together. The force (assuming we are as usual referring to that terminology as the balls part, and shake to the tables part which is the true action, because we are not nudging a ball, we are nudging a table, but again, with a logical tie it does not matter, because without one there is one in an infinite chance it will be right) anyway the force setting is programming the reaction, but that is the beauty of this, if done right it works both ways and setting both would always be redundant, unless the goal is to defy physics. Jolt? what is that? I thought we used shake and force. You appear to use it for the ball. For movement direction, or force, I don't know. The table jolts the ball though and the ball reacts to that jolt so jolt should replace shake if you want to throw in new terminology.

If VP8 had zero jolt to the ball, which is not the case (you are just confused by this opposite reaction aspect of physics), then no matter how much the table moved it would have no effect on the ball, and if the table moved the ball would not. Please quit telling people they can divert the ball on an open table surface to the point of delineating the ball by some significant amount, because they can't. VP8-= can't. Real pinball can't. Pinball simulations can't, and none of these would if they could. VP9 can though. VP9 is not pinball physics for ball interaction. Are you slowly converting VP to a sports game like hockey, and not telling us about it, or is having cabinet's analog nudging all it takes to be keeping it on track.

VP8's nudging is not perfect, but it works well. And it works better out of the box than VP9's does with scripting. Out of the box, VP9's nudging, if you insist on calling it that, is a piece of shit. It makes VP9 a piece of shit in just one little aspect, HUMAN INTERACTION with the TABLE and PINBALL.

I just got a idea. If you do end up separating it, separate it into three pieces. Jolt, shake, and force. Jolt would be the player hitting the table and shake will be the reaction to being jolted, or the action of shaking, and the force can be some arbitrary number that sends the ball in some direction, or jump or something, maybe. I know if I got to set the ball movement arbitrarily, then I might as well send it to the jackpot regardless of the nudge spot. Or do you agree that the direction at least, (lets just start there) has got to be logically tied in?

I use to think Black was being a butt by beating the drum for getting rid of unrealistic settings opportunities in VP, but now I think he might have been a visionary.

Last edited by Shockman; 03-11-2011 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:57 AM
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From an operator's standpoint, the nudge and shake should be a matter of liberal vs. conservative settings with the old VP 8 nudge and shake in the middle of these extremes.
This is because in real world tables, the maximum nudge and shake are dependent on the tightness or looseness of the leg mounts on the machine as set by the mechanics on the job per bolts.

Loose legs = max nudge and shake and are part of a liberal setting when the tilt sensitivity is set low or off.
Loose legs also = max nudge and shake on a conservative setting when the tilt sensitivity is set so high that just looking at the machine or a sneeze will tilt the game.

The VP8 nudge and shake was like a machine with solid tightly bolted legs.
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:07 AM
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And I think the term Jolt probably should belong to something like push sliding the machine on the floor where the push grates the leg footings against the floor and the ball is jolted vertically up and down against the playfield surface (z-axis).
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
From an operator's standpoint, the nudge and shake should be a matter of liberal vs. conservative settings with the old VP 8 nudge and shake in the middle of these extremes.
This is because in real world tables, the maximum nudge and shake are dependent on the tightness or looseness of the leg mounts on the machine as set by the mechanics on the job per bolts.

Loose legs = max nudge and shake and are part of a liberal setting when the tilt sensitivity is set low or off.
Loose legs also = max nudge and shake on a conservative setting when the tilt sensitivity is set so high that just looking at the machine or a sneeze will tilt the game.

The VP8 nudge and shake was like a machine with solid tightly bolted legs.
Yes, loose legs, but in a decrepit sense would appear to give the ball more nudge, because the counterforce would be compromised.

If there was ever a case of something being over analyzed, then this is it I think. I see talk about separation of the forces as way off track. It there was a desire to be anal about the nudging to the point that things like counter force, the recoil of the machine has a range of effects, that is not a bad idea, but nudging would have to work to be refined. Counter force is king. I would not be so adamant about it if it was an idea of mine, or an option, or not a direct and equal but opposite reaction, but it is none of that. It is nudge physics, and all work in this area that ignores nudge physics, or even puts it less that first, seems to be a waste of time to me.

I have not been at VPF. Paul is not arguing with me. He is arguing with real world physics.

Shake is something new, and it has no point being something that is declared as something we want, when there is absolutely nothing about VP9 nudging that keyboard users want. We had table movement without it in VP<9, and in VP9 we don't. We do not even have the shake we "want" unless we put it in ourselves, only to find it is no better with it as is was without it because it is not IT. It was so automatic and logical in VP<9 that it did not even need a name, let alone a flag.
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