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  #1  
Old 02-24-2011, 05:05 AM
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Default VP9.1.1 User Guide - Documentation & Help

OK - here is the 9.1.1 version of the User Guide - available from the downloads area here:http://www.pinballnirvana.com/UpDown...-lid-2012.html

This has been updated from the 9.0.9 version to include all the changes from 9.1.0 and 9.1.1.
Guide now also includes the complete VP9 Change Log (thanks Cupid for creating this & including it as part of the VP download), along with a change log for the Guide itself.

The guide comprises:
- every single option and menu item in the entire Visual Pinball Editor
- key codes, VP units, and what was previously referred to as "object settings" - that is the properties, methods and events for every playfield object (this has been updated by checking every possible item against the source code).

There are still a few little things that are unknown to me about the editor, and these are highlighted in the document in red text (if anyone knows about these, please let me know so I can update the guide).

Although this is now the 3rd edition of the Guide as a whole (but only v1.0 for VP9.1.1) it is intended to be a working document, please feel free to forward any suggestions, errors, omissions, improvements etc..

There is the intention to actually include this guide as part of the Help menu in VP...with luck that will be coming in Summer 2011

Finally, thanks to everyone that has helped develop VP and make it a better experience and anyone that has helped me with this project so far.

Regards,
Dan.
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:52 PM
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We don't even have VP 9.1.1 here.

Why don't you post that as well.

I have tried to compile it, because sourceforge is the only place I can find it, but I can not get 9.1.1 to make.

I e-mailed Paul but he will not respond. I think he still believes that I should take shit without giving it. I have been banned for about TWO months now and did not even bring it up, as before he used that as an excuse to extend it. Because I too want to download new VP versions and play the new games. I knew it was just an excuse, like I said.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:52 PM
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This is the VP9.1.1 that I downloaded from VPF
Attached Files
File Type: zip VPinball911_Minimal(2).zip (1.55 MB, 199 views)
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Old 02-24-2011, 07:32 PM
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Thanks Bob.

VP seems at a brief first look at 9.1.1 to finally be coming together. However, everything on my table that uses black for transparency is now solid black. And at this point I think it is clear that there is no care that the nudging via keyboard has been raped. If they can't or wont at the very least restore what it was, I don't see any point to the effort they put into it. Too bad that with this much effort put into VP that the best version still lacks the good that has been added. just two rapid presses of the space bar shows how fucked up VP9 and above is.

It looks like it might be ready for a new keyboard friendly build though, but of course this is going to mean keyboard only. I will restore the old keyboard code to VP.

Last edited by Shockman; 02-24-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:49 PM
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Go for it Phil. I'm old school and still use the keyboard, which I;m sure a lot of folks still do.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
Thanks Bob.

VP seems at a brief first look at 9.1.1 to finally be coming together. However, everything on my table that uses black for transparency is now solid black. And at this point I think it is clear that there is no care that the nudging via keyboard has been raped. If they can't or wont at the very least restore what it was, I don't see any point to the effort they put into it. Too bad that with this much effort put into VP that the best version still lacks the good that has been added. just two rapid presses of the space bar shows how fucked up VP9 and above is.

It looks like it might be ready for a new keyboard friendly build though, but of course this is going to mean keyboard only. I will restore the old keyboard code to VP.


I'll agree with this. Nudge was wonderful in VP6 - VP8 but seems to have gone wayside after newer releases. Of course they may still be looking at this problem so give them some time. I'd also like to see EMReels used on the glass for transparency instead of the frigging walls. That would be a massive time saver. Who knows what's going on.

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Old 03-06-2011, 02:44 PM
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The problem is that they do not see it as a problem. When the hardware device was programmed to work with VP it was not added like any devs worth a grain of respect would do, but they went and altered the existing code that supported the keyboard nudging to work with their device, thus destroying that code. At the time .001 percent of users benefited from that. Now by liberal estimates, and Paul's own guessed numbers, 10% are. I don't think it is really that high, but if it is it is because people have given up on a VP that functions as good as it did 10 years ago in at least that respect. Nudging is more a part of a game for many than the flippers are, because if the game has flippers, the only time they are used for interaction other than changing lights or modes is when the ball is THERE. Nudging is interaction everywhere, so nudging is still the most major interactive aspect of Pinball for many players and perhaps ALL the good players, and always will be. So the major aspect of VP is not missing, or broken, it is fucking raped.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
The problem is that they do not see it as a problem. When the hardware device was programmed to work with VP it was not added like any devs worth a grain of respect would do, but they went and altered the existing code that supported the keyboard nudging to work with their device, thus destroying that code. At the time .001 percent of users benefited from that. Now by liberal estimates, and Paul's own guessed numbers, 10% are. I don't think it is really that high, but if it is it is because people have given up on a VP that functions as good as it did 10 years ago in at least that respect. Nudging is more a part of a game for many than the flippers are, because if the game has flippers, the only time they are used for interaction other than changing lights or modes is when the ball is THERE. Nudging is interaction everywhere, so nudging is still the most major interactive aspect of Pinball for many players and perhaps ALL the good players, and always will be. So the major aspect of VP is not missing, or broken, it is fucking raped.
Shocky;

Noah is talking about this topic right now and there's a vote as to which VP has better ball nudging. So far, VP8 is whipping VP9's ass. I posted over there to tell them VP8's nudging is FAR SUPERIOR to VP9. I've also commented about the EMReel for a glass decal. Who knows what will happen, but it seems you've reached VPF even though you're over here.

What cracks me up about VP9's nudging system is that if you continuously hit the nudge keys, the ball can literally float and float until you quit hitting the keys. It's hilarious. I've never seen anything like this until I started to use VP9. When I tried to go back to VP8 everyone slammed me, telling me VP8 is dead. I can honestly say yes, it is but for nudging VP8 will leave VP9 in the dust. Worst part about the whole thing is that Noah stands behind VP9's nudging 100% and says that it's much more realistic than VP8. Okay. Whatever.

druadic

PS: Seems they're more interested in what VP is used for with cabinets and that kind of crap. You can't tell me there isn't a way of having BOTH nudging systems to choose from. Two check boxes. How hard is that? VP8 and VP9 settings.
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:11 PM
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I can read VPF. For now at least, logged off of course, so I can't respond, not that Paul would want me too because I openly disagree with him when I disagree with him. I read that thread, and I agree that his team is going to be pressured to put the damn nudging back. It is hilarious, as you said, but it is sad. It is not a crying shame, it is a shameful shame. I know the programmers can put it back in under an hour if they wanted to, but that is not going to happen, because then they would have to work on support for the niche hardware from scratch, and though they can do that, who would they be doing it for? Everybody else and not them. Not reason enough. They seem to be very proud of VP though.

I can't play VP right now. It just makes me sick to interact with a table using the new VP.

What they call Layback is King though, and should make the cabinet tables millions times millions times better. Alpha PNG is great. though ramps are not the only thing that needs that. Ball size is a nice addition as well.

They are doing great things, but this one stupid thing will always be THE testament of their involvement, FOREVER, until it is GONE.

I have been busy, as my being away from here can attest to, but I will try to put the keyboard nudging back into the latest build of VP as soon as I can. But I can not do it without breaking the hardware devices support, and I don't want to do work for the 10% of users any more than they want to do work for the 90% of users, but I would, if I could, I just can't. I don't know the first thing about the hardware. I can poll a fucking keyboard though, and have code respond to that, so I am up on them there it seems.

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Old 03-06-2011, 11:17 PM
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The nudging code is all over the place in the code. It is in VP8 as well, but not nearly as bad. Looking at the code makes me think it is intentionally obscure, because coding this bad can not happen by accident. It is not going to be easy, as Paul says, but using that as an excuse is lame. Some things are done because they are easy and some things are done because they are needed. I don't envy the VPF VP devs their task, if it is true what Paul is always saying about the focus being on every niche, because if that is true, then this has to be done even if it is hard. As it is now script fixes fall short and always will. I don't want to sound like Kennedy and say do it not because it is easy, but because it is hard, But do it not because it is not needed, but because it is needed. Do it because VP9 nudging is crap. Non existing would be nearly as good, and given the defaults we get, much better.

If adding visible rotation to the ball made the ball not roll, would having visible rotation be better than not having it? Fuck no!

Nudging is backward for keyboard users. Who give a fuck about that. That argument is lame. That can be worked around 100%. Reverse it Paul says. Then what? Have the ball race from the top of the table to the bottom, or from the left to the right instead? Why didn't I think of that!?!!!? Good grief.

Nudging has no shake. It should, by default, but that can be added by a user as well.

Nudging fucking don't work. Recoil. Paul, and I mention Paul all the time because he is the spokesman, and claims to have come up with the counter nudge code himself, seems to think is is not important. He does say that it should be noticeably less than the nudge. I still wonder if these guys have really played a pinball game, or just put quarters in and tried to hit the ball with the flippers. Scripting counter force. Been done by many. Works to a point but is no answer, because there is no working timing solution that has the flexibility.

The poll at VPF (sorry JP) has no point. The question is which do you prefer, but the answers is not "I prefer VP9", "but I use a cabinet" or the other. There can not be one single person using a cabinet that prefers the VP8 code type, and not a single person, I would imagine, that prefers VP9 nudging that uses a keyboard to play.

"Would you like nudging or not in your virtual pinball sims" as stupid as that sounds would make as much sense as a poll, because cabinet users can not use VP8 and keyboard users have to deal with the code that the hardware users use because that's the only code there is.

It really has nothing to do with preferring VP8 or VP9. It's which do you have to use. Granted, Keyboard users come up with ways to make it kind of work, but I think we must be a smarter bunch. At least we have a understanding of how real nudging works. Something that cabinet users I think do to, when it comes to keyboard use sound like idiots, saying the ball should move, not the table, or just reverse it in answer to the ball being pushed around, like pushing it around that way with a different key is the shit, or we need a switch of some kind.

What do we need a switch for? To tell the software that we don't have the hardware, so ignore the hardware readings it is about to receive? or we are not using a keyboard, so go to the trouble to make us not be able to push a key. To separate visible feedback from keyboard or hardware input? I think they should work together, or you are going to end up with visibly whack ball movement one way or the other. No, the correct solution is to tie these together, but with logical math.

Again my reoccurring disclaimer that I blame the UC coders for this, though for them there was no need for keyboard use. As for the VPF coders, I know they don't like this talk either, but UC intentions was for the code parts needed to be used, I do not think their BUILD was ever intended to replace VP as it did. Thanks go out to UC coders for sharing their work, and VPF coders for working still on it, but another thing they don't like to hear, I know, but bugs should be number one, and until the bugs in nudging are fixed, I personally think the spirit of the collaboration between VP's developer and UCVP has been betrayed. Randy went a long way to live up to that spirit and include only the best and useful of both versions. A failing, perhaps, but a real VP dev effort should continue along those lines, not use it in an attempt to sell cabinets and special hardware just to play VP on an after all, computer monitor. I wish Paul was selling computers and keyboards instead.

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Old 03-07-2011, 02:16 AM
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Proper nudging for keyboards will never be put back in, because Noah is in the cabinet business. I hope he does well with it, but the truth is, as it always is, VP is going where the money is. And since all or most of the VP Devs have cabinets, they also have zero interest in making VP work properly for keyboard users.
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:51 AM
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Well they have a right to be that way, if that is really how they want to be, but they should quit saying "if it breaks cabinet use, it will not be part, if it breaks keyboard use it will not be part" because keyboard use is broken.

On the other hand they say it's just too hard to fix. I think that is bullshit. I know they did not do it, but they did choose to go with a version that has the keyboard function for things the niche device does disabled, which unlike what druadic said was working well before version 6 and 8. version 1 in fact.
The fact is that it would be very easy to fix keyboard function, for a C++ programmer, with a copy of the working code which they have in version 8.

It's a nasty conclusion, to believe that keyboard function was messed up on purpose, and I am yet to come to that conclusion, but I did have suspicion of it long ago.
-The working code on hand.
-Plenty of time passed.
-The run around about VP8 vs real-world nudging.
-The very idea that VP9 works well enough for keyboard use.
-The selling of cabinets. and cabinet hardware.
-The exclusion of a copy, links to a copy, or discussion of a copy of VP9 with focus back on the mainstream users.
-Banning of a member that beats the drum for such bugs to be fixed fuels that suspicion. I did not hack the site, or upload a virus, or steal credit, or take credit for that matter. I did not attack anyone, or lie about someone or their work. I did not do anything but gave my opinion on a topic that should be at home there. VP.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:25 AM
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I won't go so far as to say they messed up keyboard nudging on purpose, but I will say that I nelieve that cabinets do come first in the mindsets of the VP Devs. And Noah's suggestion of coding center nudging at 180 instead of 0 isn't the answer either, because direction isn't the issue here, but how VP9 handles nudging. I have a new stand-up game I'm working on, where nudging is very important, and so I plan to set nudging low, in the .33-.50 to .75 range , and hope for the best. I've toyed with making an upside down table, just to show how messed up VP nudging is, but why waste my time? Since it would be a non-VPM table, the VP Devs wouldn't pay it any mind.
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltjlp View Post
I won't go so far as to say they messed up keyboard nudging on purpose, but I will say that I nelieve that cabinets do come first in the mindsets of the VP Devs.
John, the VP devs working on VP at this time, from what I have read from posts are Toxie and Cupid, that's 2 guys who have came forward and seem to be capable of working on the source. I don't know of any others at this time working on it.

Toxie appears to be trying to debug some things. I have never seen him post in a FS table thread or even mention FS tables or that he has a cabinet.

Cupid has a cab and is doing stuff that he is interested in doing or working on. He appears to be very good, but he is just one guy.

Anyone can work on the source, I don't see a conspiracy here, I just see a lack of people who are capable of understanding and working on the source. We (users) can offer all of the useless suggestions and gripes that we want to, but until someone actually joins the team with the ability and desire to look into these suggestions and gripes, they will always fall upon deaf ears, no matter how great the suggestion is or how many people post about how great the suggestion is...... They're all just pissing into the wind.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:25 PM
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Thanks for the information of who's actually working on the source code. I had thought there were more than just the two. I have trouble understanding most other author's scripts. so I'm in awe of anyone who can do that kind of programming.
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:41 PM
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I too am aware of the these facts. What upsets me is not as much that the keyboard nudging is so bad by default, that it has no point, but reading others say it is better than VP8 nudging, or just needs simple things like reversing the numbers used. It's a lie when the people that say that know better. I too doubt that it will ever be fixed, but it will not be because it is too hard to do. The decision to not allow builds of VP that work with basic computers and keyboards at the communities hub now makes sense though, or at least is understood now. It's not that it can not be done, it is that is is not allowed to be done. Anyone that can add new graphic format support, or a 'layback' feature, or paste with copied names, can make a simple routine that nudges with the keyboard. They might not have a use for it, or even want it, but without it VP is crap for keyboard use. For some, to be without simple nudging in pinball, is to be without pinball. What's the point of VP if it can not do the simplest and most useful simulation of pinball without spending thousands of dollars for devices just to make the fucking thing work. And they really do seem proud of VP.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:07 PM
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Since I seem to be the target, once again, of Shockman's ridiculous rants, there's a few things I'd like to clear up ...

1) Your email to me is automatically deleted, Phil, so don't bother.

2) The nudging is going to stay the way it is, not out of my own self-interest, but because it serves its purpose for products merchandised by those we should be THANKING for releasing the source code! Whether I was selling cabs or not, to 'break' the very hardware that is responsible for encouraging all the improvements in VP would be horrifically disrespectful to the company still producing that hardware.

3) I am trying to give everyone 'the best of both worlds' by encouraging the force and shake to be definable separately, but no one seems to 'get it'. If it's solely the shake you want, without the 'force', then why is this so hard to accept? It's exactly as VP8 was!

Thanks, and have a nice day.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:48 PM
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I do not nudge on VP but ! think I understand the facts as I experienced it a bit.

This is a FREE software, with volunteers working on it, & NOBODY, not coming with solutions, should criticize VP &/or the devoted individuals doing their best to get it better.

It īs like "Love or Leave it".

I personally love it every minute I play it.

If you want a real flipper, or a real nudge, get a real machine!

My 2 cents.
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:19 PM
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I understand that Paul. I would not be any more happy if the keyboard worked and the analog devices no longer did. I don't see any reason to drop one in favor of the other. I also understand that the keyboard code was butchered before the current team efforts.

This is why I will never understand your decision that only one build of VP is the right way to go. We have seen it from nearly every release from the current team. A new feature will break an existing one, or even work on an existing function breaking seeming unrelated aspects. There are two platforms that are as incompatible as can be with each other, and two user groups, (one very large) that wants the best that is VP. I offered to help and you said any builds of VP9 other than your cabinet's build would not he hosted, or even mentioned or linked to. If one method can not work because other is, then you should allow a build for each. What about that can you not grasp? You might not see this as a dis-service, and perhaps I would not either, if you would reverse your conflicting statements such as you are there for everybody in the community, and any build that breaks it for your hardware, or any build other than the limited one you are allowing linked to, could not be offered up in any way. If keyboard function really need to be thrown out for cabinet hardware to work, and that is fine, what could possibly be bad about a build that breaks cabinet hardware to get our keyboards to work?

I think your community would be better served, even if it is not being dis-served if you would let a keyboard only perhaps version be an officially hosted version along side. You do allow a version that is analog hardware compatible, and that is good. What I think is bad is not that you don't have a keyboard compatible version, but that you say you would not allow one.

You say anyone is able to work on the code, but what would be the point if the biggest virtual pinball site in the world not even allow mention of it. If cabinets were all the shit you think they are, why worry about an otherwise working as it always has version?

When you say things like You are there for the entire community, and if keyboard control is broken (I assume you are just talking about what little is left), that it will not become part of the package, you might have people awaiting, and expecting that this is going to be fixed. But reading some of the things you write, like reverse the numbers for keyboard, like having a right are ripped off be much better than having a left arm ripped off, or that even VP9 nudging is better that VP8, or that VP8 nudging was not real either, you are not missing the point, you are disrespecting people that read than and know it's not correct. The revered nudging is a non issue, VP9 has zero nudging, it's more like a hockey game simulation with a stick moving the puck up field, and a pretty good simulation of that, or a poor simulation of a auto racing game, but it pinball nudging, we don't have.

When you state that VPF is a small niche and the software provided is a niche program based on the now dead VP, intended for that niche, then I could accept that. I certainly could believe that. But you say just the opposite, that you would not allow one platform to be destroyed. But you do. You say keyboard nudging can be scripted in some way to be as good or better than it was, but it can't. You say you are there for everybody, but everybody does not want nor have cabinets and hardware to play a computer game on. Everybody that plays MAME would have a cabinet and hardware for that if it was true.

You see. You think I am making things worse, by suggesting what could be better. But VP could be better. In some respects it has always been better before UCVP, that which you call VP9. I tried to help you out. I was a decent member until you told a member that nothing could be done to avoid balls through the flipper in VP8. I should have put 2 and 2 together then. I knew you knew it was untrue, but I had no idea why you would say that. VP8 is dead. that was surprising as well, but I did not understand that what was really meant was that keyboard function is dead. And it is, so I am not accusing you of lying, just not being clear. The statement that the faster workaround makes the issue 8 times better at most, or 20% better once stated is however a lie, because you know better. VP9 nudging is better than VP8 nudging in general I hope is a lie, because the alternative would make me feel very sorry for you.

Enjoy your site. I did while I was there. Well up to that point aforementioned.

1234fd
WTF dude? Real? WTF are you going on about? Who would want a real flipper, or expect anything real in a pinball simulation? That is no reason that they should not be reasonable anymore though. WhoTF nudges on VP nowadays? There is no longer a point to try to interact with VP other than slapping at the ball when it is close to the flippers. WTF kind of gameplay is that. Never mind, enjoy it.

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Old 03-07-2011, 11:08 PM
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There are two platforms that are as incompatible as can be with each other, and two user groups, (one very large) that wants the best that is VP. I offered to help and you said any builds of VP9 other than your cabinet's build would not he hosted, or even mentioned or linked to."
Why do I even waste my time replying to you when you can't even get what I'm saying right?

We never referred to it as a 'cabinet build'. It's VP9 intended for use on desktops or cabinets ... period. What runs on one will run on the other. The only difference is the render.

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I think your community would be better served, even if it is not being dis-served if you would let a keyboard only perhaps version be an officially hosted version along side. You do allow a version that is analog hardware compatible, and that is good. What I think is bad is not that you don't have a keyboard compatible version, but that you say you would not allow one.
Here's where your lack of foresight comes in. To have two versions would mean those building tables (most of them FS authors), would only build tables for one platform. I, for one, find it very time consuming to create two versions of every table. Make it inherently difficult by having two versions of VP?

Foolish.

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You say anyone is able to work on the code, but what would be the point if the biggest virtual pinball site in the world not even allow mention of it. If cabinets were all the shit you think they are, why worry about an otherwise working as it always has version?
Submitted changes are always accepted. Whether or not they make it into our version is based on review.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
When you say things like You are there for the entire community, and if keyboard control is broken (I assume you are just talking about what little is left), that it will not become part of the package, you might have people awaiting, and expecting that this is going to be fixed. But reading some of the things you write, like reverse the numbers for keyboard, like having a right are ripped off be much better than having a left arm ripped off, or that even VP9 nudging is better that VP8, or that VP8 nudging was not real either, you are not missing the point, you are disrespecting people that read than and know it's not correct. The revered nudging is a non issue, VP9 has zero nudging, it's more like a hockey game simulation with a stick moving the puck up field, and a pretty good simulation of that, or a poor simulation of a auto racing game, but it pinball nudging, we don't have.
What part of my previous statement is too difficult for you to grasp? By allowing the user to decide whether to use shake, force, or shake AND force, everyone will have what they want for nudge. Do I need to break out my crayons and spell it out for you elementarily for you to understand?

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Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
When you state that VPF is a small niche and the software provided is a niche program based on the now dead VP, intended for that niche, then I could accept that. I certainly could believe that. But you say just the opposite, that you would not allow one platform to be destroyed. But you do. You say keyboard nudging can be scripted in some way to be as good or better than it was, but it can't. You say you are there for everybody, but everybody does not want nor have cabinets and hardware to play a computer game on. Everybody that plays MAME would have a cabinet and hardware for that if it was true.
Only in your own delusional little world did those words ever exist. In response to the remaining drivel, see previous answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockman View Post
You see. You think I am making things worse, by suggesting what could be better. But VP could be better. In some respects it has always been better before UCVP, that which you call VP9. I tried to help you out. I was a decent member until you told a member that nothing could be done to avoid balls through the flipper in VP8. I should have put 2 and 2 together then. I knew you knew it was untrue, but I had no idea why you would say that. VP8 is dead. that was surprising as well, but I did not understand that what was really meant was that keyboard function is dead. And it is, so I am not accusing you of lying, just not being clear. The statement that the faster workaround makes the issue 8 times better at most, or 20% better once stated is however a lie, because you know better. VP9 nudging is better than VP8 nudging in general I hope is a lie, because the alternative would make me feel very sorry for you.
Blah, blah, blah. You STILL hang on to that imagined slight. It wasn't untrue then, and it's not untrue now. VP8 will ALWAYS have the ball-through-the-flipper bug, and there is nothing short of recoding it that can be done about it ... sorry.

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Enjoy your site. I did while I was there. Well up to that point aforementioned.
That's a shame. The 'aforementioned' point is hardly a reason to behave the way you did. You need to get a grip, Phil.


PS: Not ONCE did I ever say VP8 was dead. It was not being currently worked on, sure, but dead, no. I even invited you to take part in a VP8 dev team.
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:12 AM
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What bothers me about all this is that once I mentioned I was using VP8 to make new tables, I got really reamed. "No one will play it" and "Vp8 is dead" is all I heard honestly.

Noah and Shocky, you both have very valid points, but Noah has just as many as you do Shockman. I can understand where he's coming from on all counts, BUT - this is what trips my trigger.

I can remember when the table actually looked like it was being nudged. The whole screen moved the table up, right and left. I loved this. You knew which way you were hitting the machine and therefore knew which way the ball was going to go.

Now, I cannot for the life of me figure it out. Noah has given me some pointers to make my nudge a bit better which is great. But do I miss that whole table nudge thing. It looked real as hell.

As Wil E Coyote said; "back to the ol' drawing board"!
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:38 AM
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Will, it's still there.

Problem is the more nudge you add, you may get more shake, but the force is WAY too much.

That being said, if we can separate the two aspects of VP9 nudge, I really believe this whole discussion will be over with.

EDIT: Be sure you add 'StartShake' in your table_init to get the 'shake' going (I'm sure that'll open a whole other can of worms, but yeah, to get the shake, you need to have it in the script).
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Noah Fentz View Post
Will, it's still there.

Problem is the more nudge you add, you may get more shake, but the force is WAY too much.

That being said, if we can separate the two aspects of VP9 nudge, I really believe this whole discussion will be over with.

EDIT: Be sure you add 'StartShake' in your table_init to get the 'shake' going (I'm sure that'll open a whole other can of worms, but yeah, to get the shake, you need to have it in the script).
Noah,

You're probably right. StartShake is not something I ever used in the past but will be glad to give it a shot. Thank you for the post and the post at VPF. That helped a bit too.

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Old 03-08-2011, 02:21 AM
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They're all just pissing into the wind.
Uh, no Uncle Bob. The fact is, anyone who is interested in compiling the VP source code will need to come up with a copy of Visual Studios Professional, and that will run anywhere from $200+ for VS 2005 to $400 for VS 2008.
The price for the current VS2010 pro starts at ~$800.
The Ultimate Edition VS 2010 costs $7,000+.

Or find an alternative.

At the risk of repeating others, umm, why change the VP8 keyboard nudge at all? Why isn't it the matter of providing the same digital nudge as before while the Pinball Wizard Controller provides the extra pianoforte of an analog-controlled nudge by scaling the digital nudge above and below that of the keyboard digital nudge (analog scalar adjustment of the same function while enabling the Pinball Wizard analog version when detected or by user override)?
I say this because I don't believe that as a digital keyboard nudge lacking precise touch control, that the keyboard nudge is adequate, but definitely is the start point for an analog control with touch functioning above and below that of the keyboard.

Because there is a contract involved, are we safe to make suggestions? I can think of another alternative suggestion unrelated to nudge, but are suggestions welcome if and when they may interfere with products because they represent "free alternatives" in competition with the products? I wouldn't think so.

I note that control pad directional pads and analog sticks haven't worked correctly since Randy introduced them prior to the contract with UC.
Only the buttons work.
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:22 AM
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Alright. Double-post.

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Old 03-08-2011, 03:53 AM
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Why do I even waste my time replying to you when you can't even get what I'm saying right?
Maybe because you are a people person. I don't know. Maybe because you know deep down that there is really no reason not to.

We never referred to it as a 'cabinet build'. It's VP9 intended for use on desktops or cabinets ... period. What runs on one will run on the other. The only difference is the render.
I did not say desktops. Cabinets are running a desktop, just inside a box. the difference that matters is not the render, in fact there is no difference there. It's that some input works the cabinets, but not the keyboard. I don't blame you or your devs for that. I just think it is something you should want to change. It would be the top priority if I was in charge to make VP good for keyboards 'desktops' too.



Here's where your lack of foresight comes in. To have two versions would mean those building tables (most of them FS authors), would only build tables for one platform. I, for one, find it very time consuming to create two versions of every table. Make it inherently difficult by having two versions of VP?

Foolish.

Why? Why would a version of VP9 be incompatible with VP9? Why would two tables have to be made? If the code was put the hell back then users could make nudge work as it should, even if the authors did not even go to the trouble to add keyboard nudge to the table. I have ran tables that have been made for cabinets on my desktop. I'm not setting a mandate, I am in no position to. I am merely pointing out a great courtesy that I think, even if you don't, that the rest of the community (desktop users) deserve, if not is owed.



Submitted changes are always accepted. Whether or not they make it into our version is based on review.

That's not my point. The point is that something wonderful like keyboard control might not be worked on because of that attitude. I'm not suggesting anything be put into your version that breaks your version. Only suggesting that you should be open to a keyboard version. Even if you were submitted a version that had keyboard control, without breaking analog nudging, and accepted those changes, as I'm sure you would be happy about, what about evolution of either? A keyboard version could evolve much easier without worry about keeping analog working, as it would be the other way around. You might not like the idea, but it makes sense. It is clear that it is hard to work on the code without breaking it. Look at how many times just the deadzone for analog was in the worklogs, not always because there was a problem with it, but the work caused new problems. And I just don't buy right off hand that there would be any reason for two table builds.



What part of my previous statement is too difficult for you to grasp? By allowing the user to decide whether to use shake, force, or shake AND force, everyone will have what they want for nudge. Do I need to break out my crayons and spell it out for you elementarily for you to understand?

The part where instead of having a logical tie between the action and the perception, that it is intentionally made to work where the table could appear to move an inch and the ball 3. Separation of the equal and opposite reaction, is intentionally misusing a simulation that should strive for realistic physics. If the difference was restricted to a minuscule and negligible amount, I guess to could use it to simulate the stiffness of the legs, or the looseness of the leg bolts, or something, and that would be good, but that is a feature, not a fix for physics simulation. If VP was using just shake without force, something I understand where you are coming from, then that will entail much more I think than you realize. You say just a setting that would separate them would be nice. But it would not make the situation we are in any better. The ball is not going to stay put when the table is moved. There is going to have to be a algorithm written to make that happen. You surly would not want the ball to move with tha table which is what a simple separation would give you. It sounds like a lot of un-needed work to me to set of a simulation that's purpose to defy physics.



Only in your own delusional little world did those words ever exist. In response to the remaining drivel, see previous answer.

I did not say they did. Read again, and read when as if, which is correct usage.



Blah, blah, blah. You STILL hang on to that imagined slight. It wasn't untrue then, and it's not untrue now. VP8 will ALWAYS have the ball-through-the-flipper bug, and there is nothing short of recoding it that can be done about it ... sorry.
Increasing the down swing is effective and far short of recoding ... sorry.
It not that you said it was limited. It is that you said it did not exist, when you know it does and virtually ended the plethora of posts on the matter that occurred on a continuing basis before it, so who are you trying to tell it don't work? just him and me, or everyone. Well everyone knows that it does, so save your breath.
But it's not about that. It's about you setting me up as someone that can be disrespected, and attacked openly, and it continued after that, with the same reaction. "The other guy started it but he has not been in trouble before" But you are banned. And you said I could say fuck in the junkyard, or whatever you call it, and I assume the last ban was for calling people that was attacking me personally motherfuckers. Banning based on a single word, but not the content, and certainly not on a level field. How could you? I was by told by a mod that he was going to ban me and then resign, because I brought up a issue (not personal in any way). UW posted in that last thread too, was personal, and it does not matter. I just don't understand why you would want only members that agree with you, or keep ideas under their hat to avoid response. If you can mention just one thing I did that I was not just one half of the same then why don't you? I can mention events where it was personal against me. Can you mention just one where I was personal against anyone? It would explain why I am banned from a group of people I have been around for a great part of my life. I was told I was going to be banned, even before I said fuck, so you can't really use that. That was just a reaction to something that should never have been said anyway. I'm asking about anything I started.




That's a shame. The 'aforementioned' point is hardly a reason to behave the way you did. You need to get a grip, Phil.

You did not keep your word. I was attacked and lied about to such a degree that that people were just writing to dis. Don't you think so, or do you think increasing the flipper swing to a typical up swing speed makes it instant? Don't you think so, or do you believe that flipper return is governed in the real world by gravity? Don't you think so, or do you think everything said against me become true on that basis? You told me you would not allow this to happen, then you lead it, and jabbed again when it was agreed to be dropped. WTF did I do or say, that lies about me and my contribution became acceptable and irrefutably How would you have me react to personal attacks? Not as you would have others that attack is it? Obviously not. I think you just don't feel powerful enough if you can not ban someone, so why not someone that disagrees with you. We both want VP as good as it can can be. I just don't think it can be if you think it already is, or switching settings, or separating settings should be good enough for the keyboard users. Bugs should have priority over new features in any software development. I hope that is just a tad easier to read here, for you, than it was there.


PS: Not ONCE did I ever say VP8 was dead. It was not being currently worked on, sure, but dead, no. I even invited you to take part in a VP8 dev team.

Not once did I say you did. You are not the only one that says things. That is why it is in a sentence all by it's self, to intentionally separate it from you. There is no VP8 development team. I said I thought I might be able to make the ball solid in VP8, just to lay that to rest. But I really don't have a desire to develop VP8. A ball through the flipper fix in the code would be nice, as a send off, or flowers on the coffin, but what would be the point of a VP8 development team?
.

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Old 03-08-2011, 04:49 AM
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"If the code was put the hell back then users could make nudge work as it should ..."

You mean as you believe it should, right?

---------------------

"A keyboard version could evolve much easier without worry about keeping analog working..."

Dude, that right there just begs the question, "What village is missing their idiot?"

With that statement, you are suggesting different advancement rates in the builds, and therefore, two distinctly different versions.

The result would be the devs having to implement features more than once and in different ways between versions, possibly resulting in authors needing to build two versions of tables, and one group having to wait for what the other version currently has to be implemented in their preferred version. It's just not the way it should be done.

Do you even pay attention to what you post?

---------------------

I really don't care to take further part in this.

For those of you who actually care about others, those involved in bringing us VP9 in the first place, and VP development for both desktop and cabinet users, you're welcome to continue this discussion at VPF.


Later.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:24 AM
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Yeah. Fuck me for suggesting that keyboard users have a working solution to nudging one way or another from your product. I was obviously out of line.
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:29 PM
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Yeah, and fuck me for suggesting fixing it OVER and OVER until I'm sick of discussing it.

Sorry if making the force and the shake user definable doesn't meet your standards or expectations, even though it's exactly what you're asking for, just translated into something comprehensible.

BTW, as far as I can tell, you've been out of line since at least 2006.

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My favorite part ... "...just a bunch of trolls crying about something that happened at another site."

Ironic, isn't it?
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:04 PM
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Yeah, and fuck me for suggesting fixing it OVER and OVER until I'm sick of discussing it.

Sorry if making the force and the shake user definable doesn't meet your standards or expectations, even though it's exactly what you're asking for, just translated into something comprehensible.

BTW, as far as I can tell, you've been out of line since at least 2006.

Link




My favorite part ... "...just a bunch of trolls crying about something that happened at another site."

Ironic, isn't it?
Paul,

I'm druadic so I can become a troll if necessary. Yes, us druids can transform into any creature or being we desire at will.
(Can you figure out there is sarcasm behind the above statement?)

Honestly, calling everyone trolls is nonsense. Concern over the nudging matter is important. Where is Randy Davis through all this?

Can I add Pinball Nirvana's logo to my signature at VPF? Let me know. I'd like to please as long as it doesn't get me banned again.

Overall, this topic has gotten slightly out of hand. Enough for me.
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