Visual Bagatelle

[Shockman]

For John.

Can you create a template using this model?

I will be willing to build a Visual Bagatelle which would be a Visual Pinball for flipperless creations. Unless and until I could, or decide to make it a .VP template.

I think a Visual Bagatelle would be nice because it would be some easy models to create, or convert existing models to (like pop bumpers to nails).

This has posts made from bumpers and nails made from walls.

If this model will do I could also put it in a wooden frame if you would like that better.

I will send you a .VPT (.VBT if you would like.

[Shockman]

Tomorrow, actually later today I will clean up the script (it still has some VP stuff in it) and post it. You can create a template, then I will alter the model per your suggestions, and build you your own Visual Bagatelle. Then while you are working on tables and more templates, I will try giving it support for those other templates, and converting some of the pinball element models to pins, nails, cups, etc. Flippers should make nice cups, now that we would not have to worry about a ball through the cup problem. They might also make some nice spinners, rockers, or dumpers. At any rate if I am able to make new models, I would rather start with cups and nails than Pop Bumpers.

I love a good bagatelle.

I also have an idea where I could make one model look and act like it had a round top instead of a rectangle, though it would actually be a rectangle. I did that to the Trumps once, even with your backdrop graphic..

I'm thinking the bottom might be better as a straight strip than an apron, What do you think?

[Shockman]

It seems an 8 ball bagatelle in a realistic mode, is about as much as my machine will smoothly accommodate. I was hoping for at least 10.

I do have some processing running, and I am downloading a movie though.

It would be interesting to see how many balls the average user would be able to have active, as well as the minimum and maximums across the board.

It may be possible to have a wall display a ball that is captured, but they would not be interactive to each other and nudging any longer.

[Shockman]

And her is the template starter model in case you want to roll your own.

Copy it so you have a template, and do anything you would like with it.

When I get back from Idaho I will finish the ball collection and feeder system perhaps with a window.

Remember that if you want to go the realistic mode, with all active balls that you would not be limited to 6 or 8 or whatever, but just that many captured. So you should limit the max balls to whatever works for you, and note that, and I will put them all in the trough for the final template with a user adjustable setting for the number of balls. If you want to destroy captured balls, I don't know, it's just so unrealistic, but if you need that to have smooth play, then we can accommodate that one way or another.

The graphic outside the table on the bottom left is a wall that hopefully looks like a post screwed into a table. It is named ScrewDepth and is used to make the posts that are pop bumpers sink so the cap acts like a rubber. If you copy and paste them they will be set to that surface.

I'll be gone for probably 3 weeks starting in a couple of days.

[tiltjlp]

Sure Phil, I can make a starter table using your template. The only thing is that I use small walls for pins, rather them reduced size bumpers. And since most commercial and home sale bagatelle had 10 balls, that's the number we should go with. And yes, the balls should remain in place once played, the reason I don't always is because some folks have problems with that many balls. Very few commercial bagatelle had aprons, so we shouldn't either. I'll have them done and e-mail them to you within the 3 weeks you're gone. Thanks for taking this on.

[Shockman]

Well that's no thing because I use walls for the pins too. There is one on the table. I only use the bumpers for on the sides and sometimes use the nails there as well.

The last game I played I was able to use 12 balls smoothly.

You can change the table any way you want.

I look forward to the starter games you create.

[tiltjlp]

I'll take a look and see how you made the pins and such. One thing I'll add if you don't have it is a good tilt system, since almost every commercial flipperless game had fairly sensitive tilting. Of course it would be commented out for home sale bagatelle. I'll get the template to you ASAP, but I'm going to take my time and make sure we get it just right.

[Shockman]

I'll be back some time just after the first of the year, most likely. It don't even need to be done then though, because I think there is as much problems with the fake holes I had in mind as there would be in making real holes. The Playfield is going to have to be raised to the middle of a deeper box to do that, but unless you do much with surfaces, I don't think anything would be in the way of that.

These are fake holes.

[tiltjlp]

Well, like I said, I'm going to take my time and get this right. I'm also going to work on a few things I forgot to include in the two templates I sent you already, plus adding a few new features. What I want to do is have everything scripted, so authors, especially new ones, can comment out anything they won't be using, but have it there just in case. Enjoy your holiday break Phil.

[Shockman]

Thank you John. I'm sure I will enjoy it.

I did want to offer this up to you before I left. It's going to be harder to use. Especially for things like drag selecting etc. The trick is to open a new table. CUT and paste the play surface there when placing nails etc. if you need to. With the play surface there you have no blank table to start selections and that kind of thing. Other problems include merely remembering to have the elements bottom height on the surface (60 and build up (110 for 50 high), and setting the surface of other elements to PlaySurface. But this way you can design some very realistic acting bagatelles.

So basically, I think it might be good to have a template that does not have a basement for a game with no holes, being that it would make design easier, and another template with the basement for advanced use, to create tables with holes.

Not knowing how to make a menu at this time, there could be a light and a pro version of Visual Bagatelle, I guess.

I need to also find a way to make a pin hit sound without having to script each pin to have one. I am a loss at this time.

This one has a basement, the playfield will also dump to the basement across the bottom, and real holes can be cut into the play surface.

Don't mind the pins I used. I was out and had to use galvanized nails. Which explains the scratched up ball.

The new example is a table with a real hole.

[tiltjlp]

Originally Posted by Shockman

I need to also find a way to make a pin hit sound without having to script each pin to have one. I am a loss at this time.

That's easy, just make them a collection, and assign a sound to them. Take a look at the scriot of either of the templates I sent you. In fact sometimes I split the pins into two collections so I don't use the same sound for all the pins.

[Shockman]

This shows the editor with the nail.
The menu 'insert' also has a nail.
The nail placing cursor (not appearing in screenshots) also has a nail.

The second shot (the table) shows the object that the selection gives (not a wall or bumper). It's yet without a shadow, but works great as a nail, and has color and elasticity settings. (it's a flipper with a radius of 4 on both ends with a length of zero)

The menu which is expands to open new templates is there, but they still need to be built, included, named descriptively, and programmed to open up.

[tiltjlp]

Congratulations Phil!!!!! That is a major step, and I can't wait to see where this leads. E-mail me if you need more help or templates from me. I've got one fellow interested in bagatelle, who is considering trying to make one with my help, and VisualBagatelle would be perfect for him.

[faralos]

just a little fyi. my computer only handles up to 5 balls and they must be at rest. otherwise if they are rolling the max for my computer is 4, otherwise the balls start to flash and disappear making any table unplayable. now i am probably the only person here with the intel integrated graphics chipset, but just thought I'd inform you that not every computer can handle multiball easily

[tiltjlp]

Originally Posted by faralos

just a little fyi. my computer only handles up to 5 balls and they must be at rest. otherwise if they are rolling the max for my computer is 4, otherwise the balls start to flash and disappear making any table unplayable. now i am probably the only person here with the intel integrated graphics chipset, but just thought I'd inform you that not every computer can handle multiball easily

That's one of the reasons I destroy ball on most of my games. I'm sure you're far from being the only person with that sort of problem. I have a low end system and have a variety of issues myself.

[sleepy]

Is there a way to provide support for analog joysticks for the Plungers?

[Shockman]

This is still just an editor. Destroy the balls, or use it (or not) to best suit you.

Analog joystick support was purposefully taken out of VP when UCVP was adopted by the VPF devs. It was there in the UCVP at one point. It was another thing that was expected to be a part of VP, back when UCVP was expected to be a part of VP and not VP.

I'll see what I can do. I would not hesitate to break Pinball wizard support.

Here is this early build, if anyone want's to try it out.

You can still play flippered games by loading them. You could also build a flipper out of the nail object.

Use the rubber to make the nail head. These shown are 1 (you might like 2 better) thick and 6 wide (so offset is 44), meaning they have the thick finish nail type head. You can make anything from no head to a roofing tack type head. Flaps, Flippers, and who knows what else.

[tiltjlp]

Thanks Phil. Can't wait to check this out, and maybe start using it to make my tables.

[Shockman]

I'm just studying and learning. Every day, each time I look at it actually the code is cracked more. It's just practice though right now. I am waiting for the new VP that will have ball sizing and .PNG with alpha transparency to build a real product. By then I hope to be able to add features instead of alter existing ones. I still think the nails need to be made of walls and I will make it do that. I hope to have the table type selected bring up different toolbars, and have Flippers and Flipperless templates.

There is some things that I need to work on. The Nail object, which has all of the flipper code, just reconfiguration of the model, does not drag select. I don't know why, maybe because of it's size, and the editor crashes if I try to paste a copied decal. Also if I place too many nails, I get a message saying Visual Bagatelle is not responding while the table is rendering for play, but it goes on to render and play. It is actually responding. Nudging of course still needs work, maybe some editor settings and code, but inside the program code too.

I think the new version of VP9 when it comes out is going to tell the tale. If it does not have keyboard nudging restored at the very least, then it is going to be a crying shame, because if a fucking wheel falls off, you don't have to reinvent the pot licker, you just have to put it back on. Same with some other problems it has.

[tiltjlp]

Phil, have you taken a look at or tried my new random variable nudge system in Modern Day? It's far from ideal, but it seems to be better than what's availble in VP 9.09. Feel free to expand on what I've done.

[tiltjlp]

Phil, I just tried your early version of VBagatelle, and I'm impressed. While we're talking about just a nail, it acts and behaves exactly how a nail should. I was disappointed that what I downloaded had only the one bagatelle template, since your screenshot above shows four templates. Would you, send me the version with all four templates?

[Shockman]

I've been working on that. I said and I quote "but they still need to be built, included, named descriptively, and programmed to open up." It's just the menu.

I did a few things that destroyed my source code changes. I do have backups though. So far the menu is not working if I change the IDS to a different .vpt file. So far I have the original model I made, and the one just like it but with a basement, and the flippered table I made in there. I have the original opening up, but need to get the others to open up with the menu. I will figure it out.

Meanwhile I changed some internal naming graphics, etc. I also worked on the nail some more (they now have a small head on them as default). I also changed the Name of the web site that opens up in the about box from VPF to PN.

I'll post an update soon I hope with a menu of Templates, and hopefully a way to save a table as a template.

[tiltjlp]

Sorry for the confusion. I guess I read what I wanted to see rather than what was actually there. I've made a starter table with VBagatelle and will play around with it a bit to see how stable it is.

[faralos]

I get a message saying Visual Bagatelle is not responding while the table is rendering for play, but it goes on to render and play.
I get this when i either have many tables openwhen working on wips or it is a busy table. you must be patient Usually this message only appears when you try to play the table without giving your computer time to render everything. if you wait it will eventually play. some of the newer tables take almost a full minute to 'load up' before i can play them, else I get that same message, warning me to 'sit tight and wait'

[Shockman]

I gave the menu items IDs and I gave the tables IDs.

I think I have it set up now to open new templates if I can just figure out the part of actually opening them up.

I will be off searching for the answer on the net, but if anyone knows how to rewrite this to a selection of in this case 3 instead of a single command, then please let me know.

At least Bagatelle 1 (the one without a basement) opens up and the other menu items does not open that up, so I think the ID thing is working.

I just need I think a code like

If [WTF] = [the table ID] then .............
If [WTF] = [the table ID] then .............
If [WTF] = [the table ID] then .............

WTF does not work. WTF will?

[bob]

Cool work Phil! I can't really help you as I'm mentally challenged in this area, but you nails look great.

[Shockman]

Thanks Bob. It is quite a challenge for me too.

You can guess what I said when I saw the nudging code, and the number of places in the code that nudging code is, and who I said it to. It looks like a frig'n virus to me. It's all over the place. I am going to have to draw on VP8 code to fix it. This $300 pinball plunger that VP9 has exclusive code support for sucks, and the code for it needs to go, because it is in the way.

I think that the fact that it has existed this long is proof that VPF dev either are either apathetic as I always suspected, or just can't get it fixed without screwing with the hardware nudging function. That is just a rant, but it is truly and unemotionally speaking, proof that there should be a version for each platform. There is zero compatibility between a proprietary pot. and a key press.

I have put some of the VP8 code back, but it is still whack. At least the direction of the nudge is correct now. You can still drive the ball like a damned race car game though.

I don't know why I have to do this. I am no C++ coder, especially in a Windows environment.

[bob]

Your Bagatelle looks pretty good. You probably need to remember that most of these are really old, even some of the plastic ones are pretty old. They usually don't have rails or a lockbar, just wood, so it probably would look better with an all wood cabinet.

Below is a pic of a famous one, notice the balls sitting in the little pockets. When you put a coin in the the slider mechanism and pushed it in, it physically moved the wood from under those pockets to release the balls into the playfield where gravity fed them to the bottom and then they were lined up on an inclined wall to be gravity fed into the shooter.


Youtube video of Ballyhoo below....

YouTube - 1932 Bally "Ballyhoo" pinball

[tiltjlp]

Bob, you're right about most commercial flipperless/bagatelle, and even most home-sale bagatelle, but there were some home-sale bagatelle with metal frames. While most of the metal frames were painted, such as games by Lindstrom, Schneider kept the bottoms of the games unpainted. In fact, most if not all of Lindstrom's games are made of pressed metal. Sharp's Sharpshooter was another metal game that was left unpainted. But I agree that bagatelle shouldn't have a lock bar and rails, as it doesn't look right to me.

[Shockman]

Yeah. I know. This is one template and it represents not past bagatelle, but the continuation of it. Besides, graphics are just as placeable/replaceable as they are in regular VP. For wood frames you could build them out of strips or have a world graphic of a frame and apply it to a frame that would be made from walls (or a single wall). There are many options and nothing including any part of the graphics or model is something you are stuck with. I don't need to tell you guys this.

Wood textures take some time to get the same resolution as far as appearance, format and get shaded to all work together. That is why some are included. I am also working on all wood models, and other templates, including one exactly like Ballyhoo where instead of a basement, it is just deep enough for slots. A Basement is something I don't know if a single Bagatelle has, but I think would have if built today at pinball table scale, which is what I am working with here.

I think I might instead go with a second open menu item for templates and drop new. It would be called 'open templates' and would have it's own folder. It should be easy enough to give those attributes that would make them editable, and save-able, but not overwrite-able (like Table1 is). That way everyone can build and share templates and it would be a dynamic practice instead of a set. New would be replaced with a resource (scratch pad) area.