Reasons The VP Community Is Shrinking....

[bob]

I logged on to VPF.org the other night and there were 3 people logged in.

Why is the VP community shrinking? People are still discovering VP, but I'm afraid they never see the tables look like they should or even play like they should on their pc, if they even get a table to play.

VP doesn't work out of the box with Vista.

VP doesn't support Widescreen monitors in the editor.

VP9 doesn't work correctly for half the people, yet I'm sure newbies download it as the most up to date version and then give up.

Any other reasons?

[Joe]

the sever for VPF just went down.

[Noah Fentz]

I am a stat person, and the numbers are showing growth, not shrinkage. The majority of our members are on at particular times based on their geographical locations.

Holidays and weekends are usually slow. Wednesdays are always the busiest days. There is no sign of new registrants slowing, either.

[Steely]

Originally Posted by bob

I logged on to VPF.org the other night and there were 3 people logged in.

Why is the VP community shrinking? People are still discovering VP, but I'm afraid they never see the tables look like they should or even play like they should on their pc, if they even get a table to play. ...?

Only 3 people? They saw you coming and ran because of your reputation for nudging ...just kidding.

Seriously, I've wondered the same things, but then I'm somewhat obsessed with pins and can't see the forest through the trees.

An idea comes to mind from... "but I'm afraid they never see the tables"
How about a webpage gallery that works like a front end. Pics only, or with minimal text that when you select that table it downloads it (if you don't have it), stores it and begins to play automatically. I don't think it would be too difficult to set up, it's all possible.
Or at least a pic gallery that leads a user to a table's download page.

Stats of user quantities is one thing. Participating in a forum or being an active contributing community member is another.

[bob]

Noah, I meant the whole community is shrinking overall in the last 5 years or so, not that your forums is shrinking....

Good points, Steely

[Noah Fentz]

Oh, well, in that case, I tend to credit the air of superiority and sense of exclusive entitlement exhibited by many of its long-time members.

It's tough to break into a community as a noob when everyone else questions your privilege to be in their presence.

But, hey that's just my opinion, and I base it on the over-reaction I was met with when I announced a great, new site.

[Liteuser.]

Top Ten Reasons the VP community is Shrinking....

1: Too busy working.
2: They found a better game to play.
3: It's summer who wants to sit in the house.
4: The PC has been sold.
5: No house to live in.
6: JP is not cranking out 5 VPM tables per week.
7: Where is PacDude?
8: No one likes to play VP anymore.
9: VPForums.com is gone.
10: Most VPM tables are done.

Later

[mrschultz]

How about the fact that real machines are so hard to find.

I think most people into VP have played real pinball, so that makes it a finite group at this point, no growth from new players. Most people interested in emulation have probably already found VP.

Most tables people want to play have been done, no new real tables to emulate so not much interest in development. The erratic pace of editor development and now with lots of tables that will not play right in the newest versions doesn't help either. And how about the fact that it's hard to make tables that look as good as the best ones, so new authors probably give up.

Later,
Marty

[Ike Savage]

Originally Posted by mrschultz

How about the fact that real machines are so hard to find.

I think most people into VP have played real pinball, so that makes it a finite group at this point, no growth from new players. Most people interested in emulation have probably already found VP.

i wonder who's consuming (or drives the manufacture of) those pinball packages which slowly but steadily come out for the console systems. it seems hard to believe that they're all people who've played pinball in RL. particularly given the general demographics of console owners (teens to around 30 being the core, i would think).

...

it's funny how entertainment preferences change so quickly. i recently took the first round of photos of stern's new NBA game and posted them at a basketball forums i help moderate (age range from teens to mid 20's on average). the pictures look fabulous to my eye and at the very least i imagined a level of curiosity from non-pinball players, if only because they thought they were looking at some kind of rube goldberg gadget.

but no, very few of them even had curiosity, even though the game theme matched their favorite sport. pinball is too abstract and gadgety to their generation, and we already knew this, but i wasn't prepared for the level of scorn they showed. these kids seem to have had every last shred of their childlike, zen-like curiosity obliterated by whatever it is they're into these days... anime, guitar hero, world of warcrack and mortal-combat style fighting games, i guess.

[mrschultz]

Originally Posted by nicolas.b

i wonder who's consuming (or drives the manufacture of) those pinball packages which slowly but steadily come out for the console systems. it seems hard to believe that they're all people who've played pinball in RL. particularly given the general demographics of console owners (teens to around 30 being the core, i would think).

I wonder how the sales numbers are for those packages? Remember, a lot of software is bought by older folks for their kids (or themselves).

it's funny how entertainment preferences change so quickly. i recently took the first round of photos of stern's new NBA game and posted them at a basketball forums i help moderate (age range from teens to mid 20's on average). the pictures look fabulous to my eye and at the very least i imagined a level of curiosity from non-pinball players, if only because they thought they were looking at some kind of rube goldberg gadget.

but no, very few of them even had curiosity, even though the game theme matched their favorite sport. pinball is too abstract and gadgety to their generation, and we already knew this, but i wasn't prepared for the level of scorn they showed. these kids seem to have had every last shred of their childlike, zen-like curiosity obliterated by whatever it is they're into these days... anime, guitar hero, world of warcrack and mortal-combat style fighting games, i guess.

Yea, software trends do change fast, flight sims were real popular 10 years ago, lots of different groups making them, now there's none (currently unknown if microsoft will ever come out with flight sim 11). Sucks since now computers are so fast and with the huge storage capacity for scenery available flight sims could be so cool.

As for curiosity, it's always been a rare commodity, at least for it to continue past the teen years, but now that there are so many more people it just seems like it's even more rare. If it were not for the few hard working and curious kids I see come through the various science departments every few years I'd have no hope at all...

[Ike Savage]

in the many prior discussions on this subject i came away feeling pretty clearly that the answer was basically past mismanagement.

noah fentz is doing a good job with his site last i saw and nanotech came through in a big way recently, so things like that are pushing back against a mountain of precedent.

i doubt that the new VPF will ever be able to recapture the pure excitement that existed around 2001-2002, although it would be nice to be proven wrong. more likely, the positive things happening these days (including a few authors left still busting tail) will change a medium-long slow fade into a somewhat longer slow fade. but in cosmological terms we're still talking about VP being a dwarf star in a relative backwater galaxy, known mostly to some old-timers who still like to visit sometimes and fantasize about when it was a healthy yellow star... or something like that.

even if someone (who wasn't a headcase) one day came through with a quality, true-3D open-source or robust pinball development tool to replace VP, i don't think the glory years of VP will ever be replicated, due mainly to all the pre-existing authored tables to choose from. they will kill a lot of the motivation, so a 'new VP' and new tables would be like replacing a good version of MAME with a somewhat better one.

but it's possible that with advances in platforms / devices / processors there may be a way to really leverage computer pinball to the mostly untapped audience who was crazy about pinball in the 50's-60's-70's, etc but who just aren't real comfortable with computers... not unlike the way the kindle / e-books are quickly gaining market share among all those people who don't like reading on their computers or laptops and want something that closely resembles paper.

how many baby boomers are out there who wouldn't enjoy reliving their youth, if only it can be delivered to them in the right way?

[shiva]

The quality of the newer tables have a lot to do with it, as it sets a standard that very few people could obtain, especially with the overall skill set in multiple areas that is needed, that can take a lot of time to build. With no new people to replace all the old ones, that left for various reasons, you are seeing far less than before.

As much as we all appreciate Noah for at least making a effort, it is way too late, it should have been done years ago to start training the next generation. Efforts were made before, and ignored as well, but you guys made your own bed, and now you have to lie in it. To make matters worse, nearly all of the more experienced authors that have the knowledge to teach or create the new ideas and techniques for new generation table design have left as well.

This community is still too fractured, and I still see it even to this day, a good example is this stupid business over a website name. From my point of view, it's not that I am "retired", because I still am making tables like the new version of Trigon and other new layouts, it's really a case of me refusing to release anything, because it's not worth the extra months of development time to finish a product when you only get a couple hundred downloads and a whole bunch of negative comments from certain people. I would rather be looking after my kid and doing other things with my spare time that are more rewarding, it's not worth the agro.

When you play favourites with certain authors, at the expense of other authors, and there were quite a few very talented ones over the years, then you shouldn't be surprised that when those favourites do leave, you find very little left because the others had left a long time ago. The sad thing is you lost a lot of great games you could have had, and now very few experienced people left to do things like those workshops at the org.

It's unfortunate that VP9 turned out to be so buggy, and frustrating to use. A new release is suppose to spur new development, but I think it's actually slowed it down, other than updates to existing tables. Maybe Randy will bail you out, and if you do get a release that is far less buggy, and actually usable, then there will be a increase of development, and people will be more inclined to learn how to do tables.

[Noah Fentz]

Originally Posted by shiva

...because it's not worth the extra months of development time to finish a product when you only get a couple hundred downloads and a whole bunch of negative comments from certain people...

I'm glad that never stopped me, or VP would definitely be dead after the demise of AJ's.

I wish you'd come around a little bit to my way of thinking and say, "To hell with it. I'll simply do it for a whole new generation of VP'ers that will appreciate it."

THAT's how you sustain/revitalize the community. Not worrying about what the cynical ones who should just hang it up are saying.

Originally Posted by shiva

...very few experienced people left to do things like those workshops at the org.

Again, you were invited to participate, but instead you choose to horde your resources and not participate. You are entitled to do as you wish, of course, but it seems to me that you are hanging on to some shred of hope that things get rejuvenated. Give it a little more time, and I'm sure it will. It may never recapture the "full" glory of the early days, but I think we've made solid strides in the right direction at VPForums.org.

Once we get back up and I get home, I'll release my fairly complete sound and image libraries that I've put together. If you'd like to contribute, you can PM me, and we can work something out, if you wish.

Originally Posted by shiva

It's unfortunate that VP9 turned out to be so buggy, and frustrating to use. A new release is suppose to spur new development, but I think it's actually slowed it down, other than updates to existing tables. Maybe Randy will bail you out, and if you do get a release that is far less buggy, and actually usable, then there will be a increase of development, and people will be more inclined to learn how to do tables.

If your system could run it, you would be amazed and very happy with VP9 and its features. The physics and other improvements make VP8 much less desirable for me to play.

[shiva]

Originally Posted by Noah Fentz

I'm glad that never stopped me, or VP would definitely be dead after the demise of AJ's.

I wish you'd come around a little bit to my way of thinking and say, "To hell with it. I'll simply do it for a whole new generation of VP'ers that will appreciate it."

THAT's how you sustain/revitalize the community. Not worrying about what the cynical ones who should just hang it up are saying.

Really, don't think I tried that, several times over the last couple years. Maybe you better have a closer look, what I am saying I have been for years, and time has proven me right.

BTW, I'm not allowed to enjoy my accomplishments, certain people always are very happy to make sure of that. As for the rest of the people, when a small group of people shout about something for long enough, the others will tend to believe them no matter what.

And get off your high horse, what you are trying to do, I've been doing since I founded this community. The biggest problem has always been ego with this community. It was never the people that were being accused of having one, it was the people that were doing the accusing. Don't make that same mistake now

Again, you were invited to participate, but instead you choose to horde your resources and not participate. You are entitled to do as you wish, of course, but it seems to me that you are hanging on to some shred of hope that things get rejuvenated. Give it a little more time, and I'm sure it will. It may never recapture the "full" glory of the early days, but I think we've made solid strides in the right direction at VPForums.org.

You may want to rephrase that, as most of my resources ended up on a little site called IPDB. In fact, when they reopened, it was the original resources that I had gathered with others that made up the bulk of it, including most of the roms and manuals. I don't "horde" resources, they are right there in my sig, and all people have to do is ask me, you just choose not to put up links to them on your site. Big difference there.

BTW, I already stated, I'm not a member at your forum because there is no reason to. I don't need resources, I don't have anything to learn, I don't want VP9 tables that I can't play anyway, and have no reason to even join something that I won't be able to contribute to. You don't allow endless bitching like here, so there's no fun for me.

Once we get back up and I get home, I'll release my fairly complete sound and image libraries that I've put together. If you'd like to contribute, you can PM me, and we can work something out, if you wish.

Well, that's nice. I don't need space, and considering the amount of resources I have managed to collect, I very much doubt that you would have the room anyway. It's a lot simpler to upload what I have on a table by request, and which I have been doing for the last couple years.

If your system could run it, you would be amazed and very happy with VP9 and its features. The physics and other improvements make VP8 much less desirable for me to play.

Oh boy, you really ARE new and don't know me very well. Trust me, I can do things in VP9 that no one else has done yet. Not even my greatest detractors can argue with that one, mainly because they have seen things from me before that shows that at least, I am more than capable. I don't have to prove anything. Even though I have moved away from the normal standard of design and graphics, and gone way out there, I still push myself to improve every year, and yeah, I'm getting real damn good now.

My problem though is I set myself to a standard that I may never achieve, and that is also with creativity and artistic expression. I find it very frustrating being limited myself, and especially add to that limitations from the software. I hate being stuck to 1024 by 1024, because I want to see just how good my graphics and my table layout looks the way I drew it. I started designing pinball layouts when PCS first came out, and though VP9 is the closest to being able to do what I really want to do, it still has those really annoying bugs that prevent it. Been that way since VP dogfood versions, same bugs exist today come to think about it.

VP9 did add more bugs on top of the existing ones, and though there are some real nice features in there, the ones that would appeal to me specifically are also the ones that don't work for me without a lot of workarounds. As I said before, maybe Randy will come out and fix it, but we will have to wait and see.

[mrschultz]

Originally Posted by shiva

BTW, I'm not allowed to enjoy my accomplishments, certain people always are very happy to make sure of that. As for the rest of the people, when a small group of people shout about something for long enough, the others will tend to believe them no matter what.

You shouldn't give people that power over you. Especially people on the Internet, where people get way more vicious than they would face to face. If you feel good about something there will be at least a few others that will appreciate it, even if all you hear are complaints.

[Noah Fentz]

Originally Posted by shiva

And get off your high horse, what you are trying to do, I've been doing since I founded this community. The biggest problem has always been ego with this community. It was never the people that were being accused of having one, it was the people that were doing the accusing. Don't make that same mistake now.

I hardly sit atop a high horse, Shiva. I have worked very hard and made quite a few sacrifices in my personal world to try to DO something for the VP community, regardless of the comments and egos standing in the way.

So, don't confuse ego with personal investment. I could have spent a lot more time with family instead.

Originally Posted by shiva

You may want to rephrase that, as most of my resources ended up on a little site called IPDB. In fact, when they reopened, it was the original resources that I had gathered with others that made up the bulk of it, including most of the roms and manuals. I don't "horde" resources, they are right there in my sig, and all people have to do is ask me, you just choose not to put up links to them on your site. Big difference there.

How does that help a new generation of VP'ers? I think you're the one on a high horse. With few exceptions, authors and contributors are motivated by praise and nothing more. Fortunately, we have guys like TAB and JP around who do it because they simply ENJOY it.

One of the biggest problems I had was hunting down resources from multiple sources when I was learning. I'm going to eliminate that issue by amassing them into one library. If you don't wish to contribute, that's not a problem. I can do it without your resources, anyway.

Originally Posted by shiva

BTW, I already stated, I'm not a member at your forum because there is no reason to. I don't need resources, I don't have anything to learn, I don't want VP9 tables that I can't play anyway, and have no reason to even join something that I won't be able to contribute to. You don't allow endless bitching like here, so there's no fun for me.

If endless bitching is your sole contribution, then you're just as responsible for the demise of the community as those you complain about.

Originally Posted by shiva

Well, that's nice. I don't need space, and considering the amount of resources I have managed to collect, I very much doubt that you would have the room anyway. It's a lot simpler to upload what I have on a table by request, and which I have been doing for the last couple years.

Oh boy, you really ARE new and don't know me very well. Trust me, I can do things in VP9 that no one else has done yet. Not even my greatest detractors can argue with that one, mainly because they have seen things from me before that shows that at least, I am more than capable. I don't have to prove anything. Even though I have moved away from the normal standard of design and graphics, and gone way out there, I still push myself to improve every year, and yeah, I'm getting real damn good now.

I have more than enough space. TAB and wtiger have uploaded over 100 playfields and I have amassed a ton of resource packages that are table specific. I was just hoping to get you involved, but your arrogance nauseates me. I thought you were better than the preceding statement makes you sound. Reminds of another statement you had made about how you don't care to participate in the workshops, because you have forgotten more than they are teaching there.

Could you be any more insulting to those that are making an effort whilst doing absolutely nothing positive for the community at large? I think not.

[shiva]

Originally Posted by mrschultz

You shouldn't give people that power over you. Especially people on the Internet, where people get way more vicious than they would face to face. If you feel good about something there will be at least a few others that will appreciate it, even if all you hear are complaints.

Good advice, where were you 4 years ago?

That's exactly what I do, I just make sure that anything I do goes only to the people I know will appreciate it for what it is, and no one else. I'm talking originals, most of the people around here are only interested in VPinMAME, but that's their loss.

I guess I have the right to be selfish now, and with that small group of people, I know that when they make suggestions, they make it because they think it will improve the table, and not for some ego thing. It's a good thing for me, this way I move forward, instead of sideways.

I guess I didn't explain it quite correctly before, it's not the case of the community not needing me anymore, it's more of me not needing the community. Rather ironic if you consider the fact that I have outgrown my own family, and have left to strike out on my own, just like my son will do in a few years time.

[Tomcat Leader]

When it comes to believing what people say, I must be the exception. I draw my own conclusions, not from heresay and small talk, but from what I see and experience. Every great creator, regardless of what it is, has every right to feel good about what it is they have created. And revel in the glory of it.

As for the younger generation, sad but true, they don't find an interest in the silverball as we do. That is why I am making sure my kids get to experience pinball, even if it is VP. But they do get to play the real machine when we find one. Even Makayla will get to play pinball and know the history of the game I love. As well as my grandson, Triston. I intend to teach him the ways of pinball before he gets to know about video games, even then, it will be MAME32 so he can know the history of arcade games as well as pinball.

As being a member of the community, it is our responsibility to maintain not just emulators and tables to play, but the history and glory of pinball and pass it down to our children and grandchildren, like a heirloom. And that is what I intend to do. To me, pinball isn't just a game, its a skill to be honed and perfected. But that's just me.

[robert kundrat]

Oh Men....Why don't you stop that s--t?Maybe Your discussion makes the VP community "shrinking".Very PROSY!

[TheMcD]

Guys, guys, guys, maybe I have the first step to solving this problem:

POP A FUCKING CHILL PILL!

Fer chrissake, I don't want this crap just jumping up again when the heck ever it pleases. THIS is a prime example of what kills a community. I, for once, am not a stat person, and as a matter of fact, wouldn't give a fuck if it was just 15 people. What we need would be some goddamn unity for once. I haven't been around that long, so if the past quarrels were anything like this ongoing conflict, then I can clearly see why the community is shrinking.

Just take a step back. Distance yourself from all this. Re-read threads like this. Would you like to be in a community like this? Fuck no. I wouldn't, that's for sure. But since I've been sticking around a bit longer than the average newbie, I at least know that this is apparently a common occurrence. Stuff like this breeds leechers and drives away productivity.

My 50 cents.

The McD

[bob]

Actually, when the community was at its creative peak, the BS was flying from every direction, so those "why can't we all just get along posts" are missing the whole creative process of the community.

Look at Groni, he'd fit right in back in the old days....

Shiva made his bed and he doesn't like it.

Noah wants peace and harmony, but started off with a bang by trying to upstage VPF.com by creating a site with the same name.

The pinball community thrives on BS and only people full of BS stick around.

If you're really looking for cool games, the consoles nowadays are incredible....

I still think first timers have about a 1 in 5 chance of getting this stuff up and running.... We piss those people off before they even have a chance to get involved.

Oh yea, like Steely pointed out.... The VP9 nudging is a piece of crap.

Today is my 36th anniversary, so I obviously know how to get along.

I'd like to hear some more BS..... Next!

[elton]

Originally Posted by bob

Today is my 36th anniversary, so I obviously know how to get along.

Well done Bob. Here's your medal to give to your better half.

[shiva]

Originally Posted by bob

Actually, when the community was at its creative peak, the BS was flying from every direction, so those "why can't we all just get along posts" are missing the whole creative process of the community.

Look at Groni, he'd fit right in back in the old days....

Shiva made his bed and he doesn't like it.

Noah wants peace and harmony, but started off with a bang by trying to upstage VPF.com by creating a site with the same name.

The pinball community thrives on BS and only people full of BS stick around.

If you're really looking for cool games, the consoles nowadays are incredible....

I still think first timers have about a 1 in 5 chance of getting this stuff up and running.... We piss those people off before they even have a chance to get involved.

Oh yea, like Steely pointed out.... The VP9 nudging is a piece of crap.

Today is my 36th anniversary, so I obviously know how to get along.

I'd like to hear some more BS..... Next!

Okay then, I will bite.

Interesting comments about BS considering that you give out more BS than anyone else. Really a case of the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Congrats on 36 years, your wife must truly be a saint to put up with someone like you, your a lucky man.

[TheMcD]

I think you missed my point, Bob. That is probably due to the fact that I wrote too much and missed the point myself.

What I was actually wanting to say, condensed into as little text as possible:

Look, I really love this BS just as much as you do. Seriously. I can't help but laugh every god damn time this comes up. But can't we at the very least find something new to BS about? I'd prefer a 50 page crap-flinging contest over the nudge in VP9 over this every day of the year.

And I can't stand how it all points towards the same direction. BSing might sometimes even help (just because fighting it out might even sometimes solve the problem), but BSing about the same god damn thing every god damn time gets old after a while. I mean, before we had guys like, what's his name, truthseekr or something like that. Kept stirring up political stuff. Kept shit interesting, at the very least.

Fuck, I'm typing too much again. Too long, didn't read version: Find something new to bash your heads about, it's getting fucking boring after a while. Heard enough about people and their egos, now it's time to discuss how to fix the nudge or something like that. Change of course before the horse is reduced to dust because of the beating.

The McD

P.S. 22 people reading this thread... hot topic!

P.P.S. It's 10 P.M. and I'm fucking tired. It's highly probable that I missed my actual point again. Replace my post with the picture of a dead horse getting beaten, that should be my actual message.

[faralos]

Noah wants peace and harmony, but started off with a bang by trying to upstage VPF.com by creating a site with the same name.
i am not going here again, enough mud-slinging was/is done over this, but personally I think he is doing a great job.
And personally I don't make and post original pins with the hope of getting many downloads for them, I create them because I like to, so for me I don't care if 1500 or just 2 people download my pins. Sure it's nice to see alot of hits on it in a short time, but really who makes pins just for others? don't we all share the same love? To create pins WE love to play, and if I have many others who also like it well cool, but I don't hold my breath over every download hoping for just one more. Again this is just one person's opinion so don't shoot me for it!

[bob]

Leo!!!!! I love ya man! You're the greatest VP author of all time and that ain't BS!

Originally Posted by faralos

i am not going here again, enough mud-slinging was/is done over this, but personally I think he is doing a great job.

I don't think anyone would say Noah's site isn't the greatest VP site ever.... He has done a fantastic job, even though shiva didn't lift a finger to help.

[shiva]

Originally Posted by bob

I don't think anyone would say Noah's site isn't the greatest VP site ever.... He has done a fantastic job, even though shiva didn't lift a finger to help.

Well there you go, since he's done a fantastic job, I don't need to. Nothing I like better now than not helping if people don't need my help and don't ask for it either.

[Ike Savage]

bob with the nail on the head, as usual. hopefully that carried through into the bedroom to celebrate the 36th.

people don't like to talk to each other in this scene unless there's a pinball issue or unless there's a controversy, in which case they tend to lose their cool and / or lecture without listening. so it's good to see that tradition being carried on in this thread!

...

you regulars who are reading, you're a boring bunch of people; do you realise that? over the course of years i've started dozens of threads devoted to random, pleasant offtopic subjects, or participated in others, or seen others doing it without my participation, but the team spirit to participate in those threads has always been very low, despite the number of people who bother to read the threads.

even checking in to say "wow, that's pretty weird / interesting, but i know nothing about it" is always valuable, but people with their tendency to want to avoid spending effort / be in control / appear macho / avoid appearing foolish rarely are honest like that. instead, the offtopic interesting threads across this scene garner the sound of crickets. unless someone's being an outrageous asshole, because everyone loves reading those threads and offering their advice which everyone else instantly ignores.

but if you bother to wrap your mind around that concept for a minute, the tendency to ignore the supposedly offtopic threads becomes related to the tendency to reduce all pinball-related threads to a sense of production and not of challenging questions and offbeat creativity, some of which verge on the edge of the profane and uncontrollable but ultimately impart a crucial vibrancy that carries a project forward in unpredictable ways. and of course most of you will think i'm speaking in etruscan by saying that. (thank you, thank you)

but the fact that some guy shamelessly stole the VPF name and few care is not the problem-- there is precedent for this via machiavelli and 'benevolent dictatorship', and that's not necessarily a bad thing. sometimes the ends really do justify the means the same way that the pros outweigh the cons. the bigger problem is that the new VPF guy, despite being capable, intelligent and hardworking, has a fundamental inability to understand the nuances of these situations and the way that chaos can drive positive effects. he sees the situation in moreso christian terms, being good-hearted in his limited way, but wishing to swing a surgical knife between what he considers 'old and malevolent' versus 'ongoing and productive', and feels justified and energised in doing so.

despite shiva being a crotchety old gasbag as usual, you can still see the wannabe VPF guy failing to understand the history that shiva is still willing to impart that could have helped him create something sustainable... something which could have sublimated human nature towards productive ends.

instead, it's the same old "the lessons of the past don't matter here; we're here to advance the positive" attitude. which has always failed and always will fail. but enjoy the new VPF during that time, you people who follow the scene and contribute nothing. you are always the most predictable flock of hummingbirds and always will be.

[bob]

Originally Posted by nicolas.b

despite shiva being a crotchety old gasbag

I have to correct you here.... shiva's a "lovable" crotchety old gasbag.

Originally Posted by TheMcD

I think you missed my point, Bob.

Impossible! It's that cone shaped thing sitting on your forehead!.

Look, I really love this BS just as much as you do. Seriously. I can't help but laugh every god damn time this comes up.

We are all laughing.... Just at different people.

but BSing about the same god damn thing every god damn time gets old after a while.

Then come up with some new material and share it with shiva as he hasn't posted anything new since 2001.

P.S. 22 people reading this thread... hot topic!

People love this crap! You give them enough of it and they'll start playing pinball again!

I wish I could write as eloquently as Nic.... He should get paid for this sh1t.

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

[Steely]

Originally Posted by bob

BTW, I went to a Chinese restaurant for dinner....

I hope you took your wife along.