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Patch 06-07-2013 01:33 AM

Kings & Queens VP8
1 Attachment(s)
Thanks to PhilB for this table, it's got stereo sounds, flipper images, etc.
& I enjoy playing it.
However, it's not compatible with VP9
so I've altered a few things to continue playing it in VP9

I've sent Phil a message to see if he OKs the mods
I'm anticipating it'll be OK with him, as he states in script ...

"Anyone may feel free to steal any
Ideas, Sounds or Images from this game at will and without

What occurs in VP9 ...

JonPurpleHaze 06-07-2013 01:45 AM

Love Kings & Queens, is this a wip or can we play It?

Belongs at IRPinball as well!


Patch 06-07-2013 01:52 AM

1 Attachment(s)
It's now playable in VP9
I could tidy things a bit more, but I think need to get
PhilB's OK first?

Patch 06-07-2013 02:13 AM

I'd be content continuing on reviving older VP8s
as I'm in it more so for creativity/nostalgia than playing tables
Hardest part of course is getting permission from authors
& then careful not to overdo the mods
as I feel those older tables reflect more on available resources, etc.,
at the time, than their authors capabilities

JonPurpleHaze 06-07-2013 02:26 AM

I appreciate the efforts and Yeah a lot of images and other resources have appeared in 10 years,


faralos 06-07-2013 09:48 AM

authors of older pins are tougher to locate than Jimmy Hoffa's burial place!
I'd love to see the older pins redone though in vp9
as they are a blast to play just lacking decent graphics
god luck with your endeavor

bob 06-07-2013 01:29 PM

There is a newer VP9 version of Kings and Queens by Uncle Willy at VPF, just like there was a newer version of El Dorado by JPSalas at VPF. If you haven't checked there, you might want to.

Itchigo 06-07-2013 07:31 PM

A plan I had was to rebuild vp8's in vp9 with updated graphics. Anything by Ash is ok, as he gave permission. Most vp8's will play in vp9 when redone, and most (imo) play great in vp8 already. Just replace the graphics, and objects. Coding can all be reused. It's what I did on Grand Prix.

Patch 06-07-2013 11:08 PM


Originally Posted by bob (Post 97124)
There is a newer VP9 version of Kings and Queens by Uncle Willy at VPF, just like there was a newer version of El Dorado by JPSalas at VPF. If you haven't checked there, you might want to.

Yeah Bob, I'm aware of those & last I looked
JP's El Dorado had four player, digital scoring, bonus count & uses
the City of Gold rom.
Looks very nice, but only thing it shares with 1975 EM is images

& Uncle Willy's K&Qs looks nice too
I haven't put this up as WIP, it's just that now I'm only running 915
& already having the table & enjoy playing it, I simply got it working in VP9
I had VP8 & 914, now only 915
There were just too many issues having them both on this setup

Itchigo 06-08-2013 08:31 PM

As an author, I'd be comfortable with, try to contact, with no success give credit for the original builder. Making a vp8 play in vp9 is not a mod imo, so long as you only do what you need to do to make it work in vp9. I would call it an update, rather than a mod. One thing I have included at the Rogue is... "If I have left the scene": This is ok to do. You have to type it in though, I'm not THAT good with html.....(yet).

Shockman 06-08-2013 09:17 PM

Not to argue, but to give my opinion, a mod is work done on someone elses work, and an update is work done by the original author.

Itchigo 06-08-2013 09:36 PM

By definition you are probably more correct than I am. I guess it was more my own personal feeling than anything else. I guess I was saying if someone made my tables play in vp10 (example), I'd be cool with it so long as it stayed as true to the original as possible.

By the way I just saw that I spaced on showing you "Big Hit" in your vp9 review thread. Sorry I missed that. A friend showed me something in the thread, and I noticed I didn't reply to you. I was told by a member that this played exactly as the one at the show he was at. Vp9 nudging still sucks though.....

Patch 06-08-2013 10:44 PM

You're right Phil & I can't say your way of thinking is wrong, Tim :)

Should've just kept this (starting topic) to myself I s'pose. Tried doing it tactfully, but ...

Shockman 06-09-2013 12:35 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I just tried Big Hit in 9.1.6 r548 and got what the pic showed. You can imagine what it looked like to play. That revision might have some zoom settings problems.

I then tried it in 9.1.2
The display was correct. Only a dot matrix where the drops and veri-target is. My settings no doubt.

I see absolutely nothing wrong from the human (Itchigo) side. The table is modeled and set very well. Even the program shortcomings are minimized in this effort. Slower flippers seem to be key for predictability of the ball off the flippers in VP, especially on the fly. It has been that way from the beginning.

Like FP, VP shines the most with EM simulation, and is more impressive from a physics point of view, even though a tediously set modern machine can make an impression, the flipper physics invariably fall to pieces in all cases.

To be open about it, I don't play VP very much anymore, though I have kept about 15 tables out of the hundreds I have uploaded. Not that I am quick to delete tables but that I have re-arranged lately in a front end and only added the ones that I like the most, none of which are perfect but have been adjusted to a more universal presentation and experience.

I like Pinball on the computer though and am open to the inevitable weirdness that comes with it. Real pinball, and suggestion of real pinball in a computer simulation is the niche these days. Pinball as a video game is the future I think. If Pinball Arcade on the PC lives up to the hype, moves ahead with the tables in the pipeline, and is step-up relative to the console releases then it will be very nice. It seems they have all the tools, resources, licenses and talent but too soon to release.

I enjoy Pinball FX2 on the PC. The tables are deep and the physics are very nice. I like many others get a lag at the controller input though which makes it unplayable at 1080p. 740p fixes it though as does certain controllers I read.

I still think VP with every revision is digging it'self deeper into a hole that will be harder to climb out of. Many of the lighting and display features that show up for example may be nice now, but are going to be lame if VP ever does get a modern DX upgrade. If someone was hired to upgrade VP to DX10 or newer I doubt that they would look at VP9 as the base.

Itchigo 06-09-2013 04:54 AM

It's all good Patch. Not a problem here.

Big Hit was made about 9.12, so that sounds about right. I haven't played it in a while. The direct x stuff is way over my head. I have no idea what they keep tweaking in the new versions, but I do believe a decent author can work around things. I just got lucky.... P1 once said that "vp is a workaround, when you learn that you will have mastered vp". I'd have to agree with that, there are ways to do anything, you just have to find out how to fake it.

Truthfully though I'm happy to have whatever version of vp there is. Before I learned computers 5 years ago, I thought all this was gone forever. I have to admit though, even when I was an operator, I never once thought about designing my own. I was always into fixing them.

faralos 06-10-2013 05:13 PM

Updates are done by the original table maker
anything done by anybody else is considered modding
since it wasn't yours to begin with it ain't an update but rather a mod

Shockman 06-10-2013 09:30 PM

In this context it could be called a port since the objective is to target another environment. If VP compiled .exe files it would then be a mod.

An update has to be official, as would be apparent if the incognito author surfaced with an update of his own.

Ike Savage 06-10-2013 09:58 PM

sorry to digress (spirit of PN?), but those pinball FX2 tables look wicked. what are the flipper physics like?

Patch 06-10-2013 10:45 PM

PhilB's Kings & Queens
anybody got it ? play it ?

Patch 06-10-2013 10:53 PM

:p\'n\'l: Hey faralos, didn't Phil already say that ?

Patch 06-10-2013 11:11 PM

I had started on a new VP9 El Dorado, with animated plunger & all the other goodies
not in any current version of the 1975 EM

Could you tell me Phil, who the incognito is, relating to this discussion

I did say mods, not update, anywhere here

Shockman 06-10-2013 11:47 PM


Originally Posted by Ike Savage (Post 97178)
sorry to digress (spirit of PN?), but those pinball FX2 tables look wicked. what are the flipper physics like?

Some people have flipper lag especially with the PC version using a keyboard. There has been many suggestions and many work.

The flippers are nice but seem to have a shallow arc to me, but you can hit where you are aiming them a realistic percentage. You can not do extreme backhand shots though. Over all the physics are very nice. The walls are modeled so straight that the ball hugs the playfield and never hops. Of course it is a video game and the physics are tweaked to make games last longer with things like slings that don't do wild shots that are strong enough to hit drain lanes, shoot again light stays on a long time and certain drains will give you another ball anyway, but a ball can last a long time and a game can last a very long time. The table modes and rules are very deep though so it is not boring.

The toys are alive, but it works quite well and probable something that to a point would be in real pinball if the tech was there. Smoke, sparks, lava flows, and that kind of stuff is even more unrealistic, but work. This is a fusion that is inevitable, and actually dates back to the early days of pinball as a video game with BAAL for example. The ball physics are their best attempt at realistic though and until it is lassoed or rides a beam of light is pretty realistic.

There is video modes in some DMDs but also mech modes that are not part of the actual model that you will warp to.

Shockman 06-11-2013 12:00 AM

I was generally speaking and it relates to an author that appears to be out of the seen (incognito).

I am not speaking against your mod. Other, perhaps, than to say I would call it a mod and not an update. It later occurred to me that the best label might be a port to VP9. I like the idea of being able to continue a table that appears abandoned as long as it is not an original. And the only other point is if the author was to show up with an update that that would be 'the' update and yours a mod, or a port. Only a no should stop you, otherwise it is a yes, or an apparent abandonment. It's up to you to determine the later.

Patch 06-11-2013 12:22 AM

Cheers Phil :)
the table is only recent, one of two (magic City) by a newer member here.
So abandonment wasn't thought of (yet) :)

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